RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (Full Version)

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Marc2b -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 7:09:24 AM)

quote:

They do. They push everything that entails a medical intervention. They push epidurals, and as a result of the epidurals, they have to do episiotomies (you can't labour effectively if you don't feel anything). They push Caesarians, and as a result, women are at far greater risk than from a natural delivery.


The problem goes far beyond doctors wanting to drive up prices or covering their asses against lawsuits.  It is part of our Western, patriarchal, heritage.  I think Desomond Morris (one of my favorite authors) summed it up nicely (paraphrasing): modern Western medicine treats a woman having a baby like a patient with a medical problem rather than as a person performing a natural function that women have been performing for ages.

He noted the silly practice of making a woman give birth laying on her back (as if she was sick) rather than the common method used in earlier times (and still in use in much of the world today) which was to have her sit (or be held) upright so that gravity could lend a much needed assist.

I wonder if we shouldn't go back to the time when giving birth was strictly a female only thing - no men allowed!  The women of the village would gather at the expectant mother's home and shoo all of the men, including the husband (he'd already done his part [:)]) outside to wait until it was over.





kittinSol -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 7:22:09 AM)

Don't get me started on the patriarchal reasonings inside so many male OB-GYN's minds - my dad's one of them [:(] . And we do NOT see eye-to-eye on the matter. When I called him to tell him he was a grandfather, his first question was: "How was the episiotomy?". When I told him I hadn't had one, he wouldn't believe it rofl. He was particularly upset that "only" a midwife was in attendance. It hurt his professional and male pride that I managed to do away with one of his colleagues. Didn't matter that I had no need for an obstetrician: in his mind, a woman giving birth is a patient, not a fully-active participant in her own labour.

I dig what you said about Demond Morris - it's senseless that women are made to lie down to give birth, but it's all for the convenience of the medical staff. Personally, I walked the contractions off as much as I could, limping and moaning my way around the corridors, until I was ready to get into the pool. The water helped immensely. I would do it again.

Sacrilege lol!!!




Marc2b -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 7:31:01 AM)

quote:

Don't get me started on the patriarchal reasonings inside so many male OB-GYN's minds - my dad's one of them [:(] . And we do NOT see eye-to-eye on the matter. When I called him to tell him he was a grandfather, his first question was: "How was the episiotomy?". When I told him I hadn't had one, he wouldn't believe it rofl. He was particularly upset that "only" a midwife was in attendance. It hurt his professional and male pride that I managed to do away with one of his colleagues. Didn't matter that I had no need for an obstetrician: in his mind, a woman giving birth is a patient, not a fully-active participant in her own labour.

I dig what you said about Demond Morris - it's senseless that women are made to lie down to give birth, but it's all for the convenience of the medical staff. Personally, I walked the contractions off as much as I could, limping and moaning my way around the corridors, until I was ready to get into the pool. The water helped immensely. I would do it again.

Sacrilege lol!!!


Try not to be too hard on dear old dad and not just because he's your dad but because, as Upton Sinclair noted:  "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it."




kittinSol -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 7:36:38 AM)

My poor father... he's not even very old at all. My parents had me when they were only twenty-two. He was still at medical school (obviously). I learnt to read pouring over his textbooks rofl (hence my uncanny medical knowledge by the age of ten). A long time ago, feeling belligerent, I asked him why on Earth a man would choose such a medical specialty. He is terrified of women, absolutely scared of them, and that at the same time, he has a deep macho streak. Obstetrics was a way for him to assert power and control over a prone woman at the most vulnerable time of her life. It was his revenge over his own mother. The look in his eyes when I presented my theory to him told me that I had drawn the right conclusion.




pahunkboy -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 7:42:16 AM)

Kit,

I do feel for the DRs.   They get pulled from every end.

Most want to give care and not do paperwork.






slvemike4u -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 7:43:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

My poor father... he's not even very old at all. My parents had me when they were only twenty-two. He was still at medical school (obviously). I learnt to read pouring over his textbooks rofl (hence my uncanny medical knowledge by the age of ten). A long time ago, feeling belligerent, I asked him why on Earth a man would choose such a medical specialty. He is terrified of women, absolutely scared of them, and that at the same time, he has a deep macho streak. Obstetrics was a way for him to assert power and control over a prone woman at the most vulnerable time of her life. It was his revenge over his own mother. The look in his eyes when I presented my theory to him told me that I had drawn the right conclusion.
Are You quite sure there isn't just a little Domme/Sadist in You?




pahunkboy -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 7:48:57 AM)

Kit is on the other line right now.



The ask a fortune teller line.  lol




kittinSol -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 7:50:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Are You quite sure there isn't just a little Domme/Sadist in You?


No [:D] .




Marc2b -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 7:54:02 AM)

quote:

My poor father... he's not even very old at all. My parents had me when they were only twenty-two. He was still at medical school (obviously). I learnt to read pouring over his textbooks rofl (hence my uncanny medical knowledge by the age of ten). A long time ago, feeling belligerent, I asked him why on Earth a man would choose such a medical specialty. He is terrified of women, absolutely scared of them, and that at the same time, he has a deep macho streak. Obstetrics was a way for him to assert power and control over a prone woman at the most vulnerable time of her life. It was his revenge over his own mother. The look in his eyes when I presented my theory to him told me that I had drawn the right conclusion.


You should tell him that there is an easier way to get his jollies dominating women that doesn't involve years of medical studies - it's called BDSM! 

"Hey, dad, let me show your this great web site I know..."

Yeah... I know... I wouldn't want my parents on CM either (talk about awkward).  [8D]







pahunkboy -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 7:58:30 AM)

perplexing to me the ebb and flow of woman-men- thing.

Even- on my end- it still at times is a secret as to what makes ppl tick.




kittinSol -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 8:02:38 AM)

The man is as straightlaced, rigid and conventional as they come. Refrigerating, in fact - it's a bit of a mystery to me why women fall at his feet so easily. Must be his good looks. What woman would sleep with an OB-GYN [&:] ? It's bizarre to think of going to bed with a guy whose profession is to poke at pudenda all day, isn't it? Or is it just me because it's my dad rofl? Anyway, I've strayed enough from the subject of the thread - my apologies to the OP.




mnottertail -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 8:04:33 AM)

cherchez le penis.

DirtyPierre




kittinSol -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 8:08:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

cherchez le penis.



Surtout quand c'est un con.





pahunkboy -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 8:09:15 AM)

Kit:

My late dad and I had some extremely perplexing conversations when I was younger.   My brothers miss them. So do I.

I now have outlived my dads lifespan by 4 years.  So I have my moms sides genes of longevity. (maybe)

But man I miss those talks.  any boyfriends mind would have to enjoy that with me.  Nothing less then that would work out long term.




slvemike4u -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 8:11:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Are You quite sure there isn't just a little Domme/Sadist in You?


No [:D] .
Dear Lady please stop lying to Yourself....embrace your dark side,celebrate your inner sadist [:D] 




Termyn8or -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 8:12:06 AM)

I'll have to see if I can find the article, but years ago a hospital sued a Woman for refusing a C section. They actually had her declared incompetent in absentia and were literraly ready to tie her down and cut her up. Luckily she got the hell out of there in time and had a normal delivery at another hospital.

She didn't even know all this was going on until a reporter found her and wanted information for a follow up story. Turns out the hospital staff claimed she had radical religious beliefs which was not the case. May have been true but the reasons she cited for refusing the procedure had nothing to do with it. She stated that for one she had already had five kids or so normally so there was no reason to believe she would need a C section now. She also said that she knew someone who died during a C section.

I don't know about you but to me that does not sound like religious reasons, it sounds like someone who knew something of the risk/benefit and wouldn't just take this claptrap from someone who wanted to bilk her insurance for an extra fifty grand or so.

That fact is we enjoy the poorest health in most of the world because of those who ruin our whole system (the "i" was NOT a typo). Another fact is that sick mothers have sick babies. Yes we do need healthcare reform, but not the kind most people think. This is just another case where it is obviously open season on the US consumer. It's bad enough they can sell you home theater systems for thousands of dollars for which parts are no longer available the same day they hit the shelves. It's bad enough that they sell you car in which you have to remove the engine to change the alternator (one of the more common problems on newer cars). But now they are fucking with your life.

Then we have a crowd in DC that thinks the way to fix this overbloated, malicious and greedy system is by throwing more tax dollars at it.

Money does nothing for those on either end of the umbilical cord. And now that not only our health care is at third world status, as well as the educational system, I would addend the advice implied in the OP -

If pregnant, go to another country, AND STAY THERE. Get the kid a real education. Then they might move to the US and have a real future because they will be head and shoulders above their would be peers in academics. If they're really smart they will buy their TVs and cars overseas as well. Cars for foreign markets up until recently at least were made with only a limited different kind of nuts and bolts, and some only required three wrenches to dismantle the entire thing. Here you need two grand worth of tools to change a cylinder head. And a bunch of countries have warranties on electronic goods, which are enforced by law.

Like I said it is and has been open season on the US consumer for a long time, this is just one more manifestation of the symptoms.

T




slvemike4u -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 8:15:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Kit:

My late dad and I had some extremely perplexing conversations when I was younger.   My brothers miss them. So do I.

I now have outlived my dads lifespan by 4 years.  So I have my moms sides genes of longevity. (maybe)

But man I miss those talks.  any boyfriends mind would have to enjoy that with me.  Nothing less then that would work out long term.

PA,I would imagine all of your conversations are perplexing no matter who with,or even if there is in fact another participant [:D].




takemeforyourown -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 8:16:23 AM)

As a former Labor and Delivery nurse, I can attest to the fact that doctors favor high-intervention births. However, one of the biggest reasons is not for higher reimbursment or power, but the fear of lawsuits. In America, if your birth or baby don't turn out the way you expected you can sue your doctor, whether it's his/her fault or not. In my experience interventions; monitoring, episiotomies, forceps births and c-sections were used in order to err on the side of caution. I'm not saying that I agree with it, I don't work in Labor and Delivery anymore.




tazzygirl -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 8:18:54 AM)

well, kittin, having worked in the field for a decade, i think i know a bit of what i speak about.

First, according to WHO, yes, the US has a c-section rate of roughly 30% (2008). Most Asian countries are above 40%. Latin America 35%.

quote:

Nearly half of moms-to-be surveyed in China were delivering by cesarean sections, the world's highest rate recorded by the World Health Organization, which warned Tuesday that a boom in unnecessary surgeries is jeopardizing women's health.

......

In China, a quarter of all C-sections recorded were not medically necessary, the report said.

..........

Women undergoing C-sections that are not medically necessary are more likely to die or be admitted into intensive care units, require blood transfusions or encounter complications that lead to hysterectomies, the study found. The procedure was shown to benefit babies during breech births.

Reasons for elective C-sections vary globally, but increasing rates in many developing countries coincide with a rise in patients' wealth and improved medical facilities.

...........

In Asia, some women opt for the abdominal surgery to choose their delivery day after consulting fortune tellers for "lucky" birthdays or times. Others fear painful natural births or worry their vaginas may be stretched or damaged by a normal delivery. Some women also prefer the operation because they believe it is less risky.

"I think it's safer for the mother and child to have C-sections, and the relatives feel more secure because it's very simple and very common now," said Trang Thanh Van, 25, just days away from giving birth to her first child in Vietnam. "People worry that using tools to pull the baby out may affect their brains."

........

The survey, published online Tuesday in the medical journal Lancet, mirrors similar results reported by WHO in 2005 from Latin America, where 35% of pregnant women surveyed were delivering by C-section.

....
In Latin America, C-section rates in all eight countries surveyed earlier by WHO were 30% or higher, with Equador posting 40% and Paraguay 42%. Some expectant mothers there scheduled elective surgeries to avoid giving birth during holidays or even so they could attend parties, said Dr. Archana Shah, from the WHO in Geneva, who worked on that report and cautioned that data in both studies represent a sample that may not reflect overall national rates

In the U.S., where C-sections are at an all-time high of 31%, the surgery is often performed on older expectant mothers, during multiple births or simply because patients request it or doctors fear malpractice lawsuits. A government panel warned against elective C-sections in 2006.

Meanwhile, an earlier WHO survey of African countries found that C-sections occurred in about 9% of deliveries surveyed and that many medical facilities were ill equipped to perform emergency surgeries, leading to increased deaths.

The Asian survey examined deliveries in 122 randomly selected public and private hospitals in 2007 and 2008 across Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Nepal, the Philippines, Sri Lanka, Thailand and Vietnam. The hospitals were located in capital cities and two other regions or provinces within each country, all logging more than 1,000 births a year.

China's 46% C-section rate was followed by Vietnam and Thailand with 36% and 34%, respectively. Cambodia and India had the lowest rates of 15% and 18%, respectively.

The study did not discuss specific reasons for the high number of C-sections, but it noted that more than 60% of the hospitals studied were motivated by financial incentives to perform surgeries.

At Vietnam's National Hospital of Gynecology and Obstetrics in Hanoi, about 40% of the 20,000 babies delivered there annually are via C-section, said Dr. Le Anh Tuan, the hospital's vice director, who did not participate in the study.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-01-12-China-C-Section_N.htm

Now, the Lancet, while a notable paper, i tend to view them with a bit of criticism especially after the Vaccine article. You remember that one... the one that had parents declaring vaccinations cause autism. sad actually.

Now, its true VBACs have gone by the wayside. Many hospitals no longer allow the trial by labor. Some Drs prefer not to even attempt them based upon the potential lawsuits. A trial by labor for failure to dialate. Woman attempts another labor, it doesnt go well. late decelarations, and its off to the OR. if anything happens to the baby, the Dr will be sued.

The current trend seems to be moms demanding c-sections.... it seems to the the "posh" thing to do.

quote:

When she learned she was pregnant with her second child, Missy Beiting issued an ultimatum to her obstetrician. “Schedule me for c-section or I’ll find a doctor who will,” she remembers saying. Beiting gave birth to her first child, a 10-pound, 14-ounce son, by c-section after a failed induction and a stressful nine hours waiting for a labor that never began. She avoided the stress the second time around and welcomed her 10-pound, 11-ounce son after a scheduled c-section at 37 weeks.

Like a growing number of women across the country and around the world, Beiting, 39, of Southgate, Kentucky, determined to gain more control over her childbirth experience by requesting a cesarean section. Stanford University’s Dr. Maurice Druzin and colleagues observe that “the issue of cesarean section on maternal request has been described as being part of a ‘perfect storm’ of medical, legal, and personal choice issues, and the lack of an opposing view.”


http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=b93d114e-5009-4f6a-9917-6c594254fcc7&chunkiid=84008

Seems the Drs.. at least in the US... are damed if they do and damned if they dont. Now im not saying all OBs are above using a c-section to make that boating trip. However, depending on the hospital, the review boards, the lawyers, the patients themselves, many Drs are stuck between a rock, a hard place, a brick wall, and a pitt bull.

Stars like Madonna made c-sections popular. Cut, birth, and back to work with a fantastic bode because of that tummy tuck. This is what moms expect and insist upon having.

Blaming the system because the powers that control the system have become more demanding by the minute doesnt work.

Again, another example of lawyers and bean counters running health care.




kittinSol -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 8:19:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

If pregnant, go to another country, AND STAY THERE. Get the kid a real education. Then they might move to the US and have a real future because they will be head and shoulders above their would be peers in academics.



With the immigration process such as it is (absolutely, radically insane), this is not a plan I would advise anyone to follow, unless they want to risk their progeny's citizenship and future.




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