National Day of Prayer (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> National Day of Prayer (4/18/2010 10:31:43 PM)

Seems a federal judge overturned the National Day of Prayer statute.

the link is here

(CNN) -- A federal judge on Thursday struck down the federal statute that established the National Day of Prayer, ruling that it violates the constitutional ban on government-backed religion.

"[I]ts sole purpose is to encourage all citizens to engage in prayer, an inherently religious exercise that serves no secular function," a Wisconsin judge wrote in the ruling, referring to the 1952 law that created the National Day of Prayer.

"In this instance, the government has taken sides on a matter that must be left to individual conscience," wrote the judge, Barbara B. Crabb.


........

"The National Day of Prayer provides an opportunity for all Americans to pray voluntarily according to their own faith and does not promote any particular religion or form of religious observance," said Joel Oster, senior legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund.

Church-state separation groups, meanwhile, applauded the ruling.

"This decision is a tremendous victory for religious liberty," said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. "Congress has no business telling Americans when or how to pray."

The Interfaith Alliance also welcomed the ruling. "Maintaining clear boundaries between religion and government only serves to strengthen both," said the group's president, the Rev. Welton Gaddy.

One constitutional scholar doubted the case would survive an appeal to a federal circuit court.

"Judges have never been absolutists in these establishment clause cases," said Douglas Laycock, a University of Michigan Law School professor specializing in religious liberties issues. "If they were they would to tell the president to stop issuing Thanksgiving proclamations and tell the Treasury Department to take 'In God We Trust' off our money."

The lawsuit against the Obama administration was brought by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a group based in Madison, Wisconsin.


Im curious as to the thoughts from others on both sides of the proverbial pew.




Elisabella -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/18/2010 11:33:31 PM)

Christmas and Easter are national holidays that require companies to pay overtime, and they're pretty faith-specific. I find it amusing that this group goes after "National Day of Prayer" instead, which is something I've never heard of until today.




Dubbelganger -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/18/2010 11:38:32 PM)

What about YOUR thoughts, Tazzi? (Is that Tasmanian? As in P. somniferum?)




rulemylife -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 12:23:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Christmas and Easter are national holidays that require companies to pay overtime, and they're pretty faith-specific. I find it amusing that this group goes after "National Day of Prayer" instead, which is something I've never heard of until today.


The U.S. does not have national holidays, Christmas is a federal holiday that has no binding requirements on private companies.

Easter is not a federal holiday.

There have been suits brought against the government regarding the Christmas holiday but courts have upheld the designation by viewing Christmas as a secular holiday.




DomKen -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 12:23:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Christmas and Easter are national holidays that require companies to pay overtime, and they're pretty faith-specific. I find it amusing that this group goes after "National Day of Prayer" instead, which is something I've never heard of until today.

Easter is not a national holdiay and christmas has been ruled to be a secular event (Lynch v Donnelly and Florey v Sioux Falls school district).




tazzygirl -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 5:17:58 AM)

None of the above, Dubbel... [:D]

My thoughts?

I cannot think of a religion that doesnt have some form of prayer. So i see no one faith being promoted over another. I do see all faiths being supported by this statute. So, was this a strike against government intervention or promotion of a particular religion, which is against what our founding fathers wanted... or is this a strike against religion, which is a supported freedom?




GotSteel -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 6:07:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I cannot think of a religion that doesnt have some form of prayer. So i see no one faith being promoted over another.

I doubt this is a complete list but off the top of my head, Scientology is a religion that doesn't pray. I would expect Deism to count as well. Atheism has been found to have rights equivalent to a religion and many of us don't like being told to pray.




agnes26 -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 6:09:56 AM)

Thats sort of the thing for me, too...I don't like the government telling me I have to pray, no matter if they infer a specific god or not. 




Kirata -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 6:46:48 AM)

~ FR ~
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

many of us don't like being told to pray.

quote:

ORIGINAL: agnes26

I don't like the government telling me I have to pray

Before any more people turn up with tin-hat paranoid claims and turn this into another conspiracy thread, let's please get clear that the government is NOT "telling people" that they have to pray.

K.




Louve00 -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 6:47:38 AM)

My thoughts are we're becoming an extremely sensitive nation.  About most anything.  Personally, my thoughts are, if one wants to pray under the umbrella of a certain religion, to any god...great.  Or if they don't want to pray at all, then great too.  I'm all for seperation of church and state, but I'm not going to take the obsessive road over it all.  My question is how long has the gov't been telling us when to pray, how often, or to who?  




Louve00 -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 6:49:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Before any more people turn up with tin-hat paranoid claims and turn this into another conspiracy thread, let's please get clear that the government is NOT "telling people" that they have to pray.

K.



Thanks, Kirata.  In my slow-pokedness to get this post posted, you beat me to the punch.  Well, at least I know I'm still a law abiding citizen!  [:D]




agnes26 -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 7:06:23 AM)

I know...and the rational part of me knows that I'm not being "forced to pray". (I am glad they quit doing that in school before my time.) I just get a little bristley at the idea of a government sanctioned prayer day. Maybe I'd be a little less so if they had government sanctioned "free thinking day" or something. I spent time in the UK recently and I really enjoyed how - depsite England having a national church (unlike the US) - there seems to be no permeation of public politics with religion. At least to an American observer, it was much less than here. 




Louve00 -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 7:11:09 AM)

hmmmm.....agnes, you might be onto something there.

National Free Thinking Day.  Can you just imagine the possibilities if there was a National day set aside for free thinking individuals?  I think it'd give us one more thing to be confused about (and to bitch about, too [;)])




eyesopened -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 7:25:27 AM)

Oh dear what's next!  Will they do away with Leif Erikson Day?  Other ethnic groups get a whole month but my people only get one day as it is.  I will pray (on any day I damn well feel like it) that Leif Erikson Day remains on the National calendar of observances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_observances




sunshinemiss -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 7:46:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

None of the above, Dubbel... [:D]

My thoughts?

I cannot think of a religion that doesnt have some form of prayer. So i see no one faith being promoted over another. I do see all faiths being supported by this statute. So, was this a strike against government intervention or promotion of a particular religion, which is against what our founding fathers wanted... or is this a strike against religion, which is a supported freedom?



Many religions don't have prayer tazzy... and what about the people who don't practice a religion?

If people need the government to remind its citizens to pray, there is seriously something wrong.

best,
sunshine




GotSteel -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 7:50:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Before any more people turn up with tin-hat paranoid claims and turn this into another conspiracy thread, let's please get clear that the government is NOT "telling people" that they have to pray.
K.[/font][/size]

If there was any confusion, I'm not claiming that the Federal Government is forcing people to pray. If there wasn't any confusion...well then please stop straw-manning me.




Mercnbeth -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 8:25:58 AM)

~ Fast Modernization ~


There is an old comment; "As long as there are tests and exams in schools there will be prayer".

Sometimes the prayer is traditional; "Jesus Christ help get me through this test and pass!"

Some are 'new age' versions; "Jesus Christ I forgot about this fucking test, I hope I pass!"

Modernized, with or without the 'National Day' in the thoughts of many is the prayer, "Jesus Christ get me through this Administration!"; with or without 'new age' any modifiers.

Considering the alternative, people and political parties, prayer could be the best logic to employ.




flcouple2009 -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 9:15:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

~ Fast Modernization ~


There is an old comment; "As long as there are tests and exams in schools there will be prayer".

Sometimes the prayer is traditional; "Jesus Christ help get me through this test and pass!"

Some are 'new age' versions; "Jesus Christ I forgot about this fucking test, I hope I pass!"

Modernized, with or without the 'National Day' in the thoughts of many is the prayer, "Jesus Christ get me through this Administration!"; with or without 'new age' any modifiers.

Considering the alternative, people and political parties, prayer could be the best logic to employ.


Yes, that worked so well for Bush didn't it? 




thishereboi -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 10:01:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: agnes26

Thats sort of the thing for me, too...I don't like the government telling me I have to pray, no matter if they infer a specific god or not. 


Who told you you had to pray? I'm pretty sure it's not mandatory.[8|]




agnes26 -> RE: National Day of Prayer (4/19/2010 10:12:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: agnes26

Thats sort of the thing for me, too...I don't like the government telling me I have to pray, no matter if they infer a specific god or not. 


Who told you you had to pray? I'm pretty sure it's not mandatory.[8|]



Did you read my follow up post...?




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