Mary, Mary? (Full Version)

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RCdc -> Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 12:53:29 PM)

Something running through my head  and I wanted to gain some insight on what people have been taught or believe etc.
Mary - daughter of Aaron, Mary of Bethany, Mary Magdalene, The unnamed(prostitute), Mary also Miriam.... the list goes on.  Do you believe that any of them were the same person?

the.dark.




SohCahToa -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 12:59:55 PM)

I don't know but I hear she had a little lamb.




Rule -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 1:59:39 PM)

Yes.




Musicmystery -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 2:27:25 PM)

No.




RCdc -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 2:31:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Yes.


Awww Rule and MrMusicMystery.  I should have known I should be more precise.[;)]
Ok... if your answer is yes, who is the same, how did you reach that concluesion and why? 
If no - how did you reach that idea and why etc...

the.dark.




Musicmystery -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 2:44:01 PM)

quote:

Ok... if your answer is yes, who is the same, how did you reach that concluesion and why? 
If no - how did you reach that idea and why etc...

With no evidence to suggest so, there's no reason to believe it.

People make up enough crazy shit already.




Rule -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 2:53:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Yes.

Awww Rule and MrMusicMystery.  I should have known I should be more precise.[;)]
Ok... if your answer is yes, who is the same, how did you reach that conclusion and why? 
If no - how did you reach that idea and why etc...

Because I am a supergenius.




RCdc -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 3:00:41 PM)

If you would Rule, please define supergenius?

the.dark.




SohCahToa -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 3:48:25 PM)

In the same way supernatural means not natural.




heartcream -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 4:57:21 PM)

I would say considering fragmentation of the soul that can take place from the specific point of origin yes, these women are connected in more ways than one.





SohCahToa -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 5:07:39 PM)

Care to elaborate?




heartcream -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 5:28:07 PM)

Yeah I thought about that. Not really, not now.





sunshinemiss -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 5:42:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SohCahToa

I don't know but I hear she had a little lamb.



No, no, no... She was quite contrary and had a garden.




vincentML -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 5:43:05 PM)

As I understand it, the victors in the early struggle for the orthodoxy of the Faith conflated Mary Magdelene with the prostitute in order to devalue Mary as an apostolic leader. Here is some insight as to why this may have been so and why the Catholic Church was so offended by Dan Brown's fictional story The Da Vinci code. Source

Information on Gospel of Mary
In her introduction in The Complete Gospels, Karen King names the manuscripts available for the Gospel of Mary, "Only three fragmentary manuscripts are known to have survived into the modern period, two third-century fragments (P. Rylands 463 and P. Oxyrhynchus 3525) published in 1938 and 1983, and a longer fifth-century Coptic translation (Berolinensis Gnosticus 8052,1) published in 1955."

King goes on to make these text-critical observations:


There are, moreover, some important variations between the Greek and Coptic manuscripts. The translation which follows gives preference to the Greek fragments over the Coptic because they are earlier and are written in the original language of the text, and also because the Coptic variants reflect theological tendencies that arguably belong to a later time. For example, the Greek fragments seem to presume that the leadership of Mary Magdalene as a woman is not under debate; only her teaching is challenged. Changes in the Coptic version, however, point toward a situation in which women's leadership as such is being challenged and requires defense. The changes in the text may reflect the historical exclusion of women from their earlier leadership roles in Christian communities.

King states that the theology of the Gospel of Mary is as follows:


. . . the Gospel of Mary communicates a vision that the world is passing away, not toward a new creation or a new world order, but toward the dissolution of an illusory chaos of suffering, death, and illegitimate domination. The Savior has come so that each soul might discover its own true spiritual nature, its "root" in the Good, and return to the place of eternal rest beyond the constraints of time, matter, and false morality.

The Gospel of Mary exalts Mary Magdalene over the male disciples of Jesus. The Gospel of Mary provides important information about the role of women in the early church.

In her introduction in The Nag Hammadi Library, Karen King makes these observations:


The confrontation of Mary with Peter, a scenario also found in The Gospel of Thomas, Pistis Sophia, and The Gospel of the Egyptians, reflects some of the tensions in second-century Christianity. Peter and Andrew represent orthodox positions that deny the validity of esoteric revelation and reject the authority of women to teach. The Gospel of Mary attacks both of these positions head-on through its portrayal of Mary Magdalene. She is the Savior's beloved, possessed of knowledge and teaching superior to that of the public apostolic tradition. Her superiority is based on vision and private revelation and is demonstrated in her capacity to strengthen the wavering disciples and turn them toward the Good.




sunshinemiss -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 5:49:03 PM)

More seriously, dark, while I've studied religion (a longggggggggggg time ago), I haven't studied it in depth. Things like reading in the original, the norms of the time, the way people are named and identified in books all come to mind off the top of my head.

Sort of a round about thing:

In the book Hawaii by James Michener, there is a scene in which one of the missionaries starts to tell the "begats". It was *there* that the locals actually felt a kinship with this new religion. They, too, had a similar way of maintaining their geneology. They had their own version of the begats. I remember reading that and being thrown for a loop. I'd always thought the begats were dull as can be. The idea that someone would feel a resonance for that was mind boggling at the time.

As to your question, how can we, with our limited knowledge of that time frame, the norms, the language, the slang, the nuances, possibly make a determination? There are scholars who study this. I defer to them... with a healthy dose of skepticism thrown in. [;)]

best,
sunshine




Musicmystery -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 6:57:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

ORIGINAL: SohCahToa

I don't know but I hear she had a little lamb.



No, no, no... She was quite contrary and had a garden.

How did it grow?




vincentML -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 8:36:45 PM)

Seriously, when has "limited knowledge" ever been a deterrent to voicing an opinion on these Boards? LOL!

the.dark. asked what we believed not our knowledge. Not a lot of people, very, very few I would venture think Mary Magdelene was a not a whore. That was a tortured sentence wasn't it? Sorry. MM has been portrayed as a whore. Evidence the scandal of the Magdelene Sisters, the movie which depicted "bad girls" being locked away in religious cloisters in Ireland until recently. Was also a theme in Katzantzankis' The Last Temptation of Christ I believe.




sunshinemiss -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 8:39:28 PM)

Well, Vincent, some of us like to have something to back up our opinions. I am in the Mary Magdalene was a priestess of the Goddess. The DaVinci Code didn't present a new theory. It just made a known one better known.

best,
sunshine




Kirata -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 8:51:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Not a lot of people, very, very few I would venture think Mary Magdelene was a not a whore.

Mary Magdalene is referred to in early Christian writings as "the apostle to the apostles." In apocryphal texts, she is portrayed as a visionary and leader of the early movement, who was loved by Jesus more than the other disciples. Several Gnostic gospels, such as the Gospel of Mary, written in the early second century, see Mary as the special disciple of Jesus who has a deeper understanding of his teachings and is asked to impart this to the other disciples. Many speculations, both in antiquity and in modern times, have emerged regarding Mary, including claims that she was Jesus' wife and even that she bore some children by him.

Additionally, the wiki entry excerpted above begins by noting...

In recent years there has been a great restoration of the New Testament figure of Mary Magdalene as a patron of women's preaching and ministry. Her new popularity has stemmed in part from the recognition that Mary Magdalene has been the victim of a historical defamation of character. She has been misidentified as a repentant prostitute in historical tradition, and depicted in art as a weeping sinner wiping Jesus' feet with her hair. New Testament scholarship has shown that this picture of Mary Magdalene is patently false and disparagingly misleading....

K.




Andalusite -> RE: Mary, Mary? (4/23/2010 9:13:39 PM)

There is nothing in the KJV Bible that hints at Mary Magdalene being a prostitute. Jesus cast 7 demons out of her, and she went with Mary (the mother of James) to Jesus' tomb and found him gone.

Kirata, the incident you're speaking of is Mary, Martha and Lazarus' sister in John 11:2 and John 12:3, who wiped his feet with her hair and expensive perfume. In Luke 7:37-38, it says that a woman (unnamed) who was a sinner wiped his feet with her hair and her tears. Some people seem to think that all three are referring to the same woman, but as far as I can tell, Mary Magdalene was not Lazarus' and Martha's sister, so I have no idea how people came to associate her with either reference. Probably just too many people named Mary, so they got confused.




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