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The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 1:46:05 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Some of you may have followed the thread, “The Shape of Things to Come, and taken it in the spirit it was intended … as a theory on the behavior of young women in the modern age, as it relates to the D/s lifestyle.
 
The topic was limited to young women and their relations to men, because the author tends to be a young woman, and tends to date men. People reading this should feel free to substitute age, gender and sexual preference as they see fit.
 
People intent on practicing a bit of free psychoanalysis, up to and including finding small snippets of profiles in order to condemn lifestyle choices, are more than welcome but should know in advance that this author at least, has been shrunk by far better people.
 
Lastly, this is only a theory for discussion, and relates to no specific person.
 
So, with that as a disclaimer … The Shape of Things to Come, Part II
 
Modern society has blurred the roles between men and women. There has been much discussion about this in a variety of threads dealing with feminism, and readers are invited to check them out. We will not rehash them here.
 
This blurring of roles might work well in the workplace, in college and on athletic fields … but from the perspective of the small focus group of my 18 to 20-something friends, the blurring of roles is a huge problem in relationships.
 
I think on of the attractions of this lifestyle, and one of the reasons I think it will continue growing among young people, is that it offers clearly defined roles that people can fit themselves in.
 
In short, I don’t think it’s the greater access that the internet offers that is driving this, or the more ready access to pornography. It may seem that way on the surface, but when you get past the surface, you find lots of things that have gotten this “bump” by internet access, but have died on society's vine.
 
Bottom line … the internet can only drive, what people somehow want … period!
 
So, why would young women want this? The answer is simple … there are clearly defined roles, and a lot of frustration when there aren’t defined roles.
 
Using a personal example: One of the better relationships I have had was with a married man that was cheating on his wife … a relationship where I knew what I was to him, and he knew what he was to me. For us, it worked, and when he got back together with his wife and told me goodbye, it did hurt a little, but I could rationalize it … in that I knew what the score was when I entered the game.
 
Discussing this with one of my friends, she made the comment that she is smart enough to know for herself what who she likes and who she doesn’t, and that all these bullshit society games are just insulting to her intelligence.
 
I found this very interesting, as I feel the same way. If I want to see a guy that has some flaws (maybe a short fuse, or he wants to screw other girls), but is someone that excites me intellectually and physically, then that is my call to make … providing we have clearly defined roles in our relationship and we know each other for what we really are.
 
I feel that on some level, a good D/s relationship has a chance of providing this, and I think it is starting to attract lots of young women to the lifestyle. While I do understand that there will never be 100% clearly defined roles in any situation, I do think that the D/s lifestyle offers at least a chance to know where you stand in a relationship.
 
My honest opinion, is that this is driving the growth of D/s and will continue to do so in the future.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 4/5/2006 2:01:02 PM >
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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 2:29:59 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		My theory is the feminist movement destroyed all the institutions and defined roles for men and women in relationships (or tried to and succeeded to a large degree).**Anti-Flame note some of those things were wrong but like most everything once rolling it continued well beyond were it should have stopped** Then after the damage was done, all of a sudden women (general exceptions apply), notice wow, all these men are acting like little boys, or girls for that matter, or lacking moral character, and just care about screwing us(No movement will change that). Well, generic woman steroetype says, I like some structures and some differences, but for some reason I don't like the concept of a 50's style housewife. So, she look over there and sees BDSM style relationship, and goes hey I can be a liberated modern woman(sexually deviant), and also have the structure I want (Master/Slave or Dom/Sub) without any real responsiblities (can just walk away, without any process involved). So, since the current mindset is anything based around pre-60's relationship types, is oppressive and people in general are responsiblity phobic(Generalities, doesn't apply to everyone). Then they are attracted to the nearest alternative, that gives really the nearly the  same dynamic, but it allows them not to catch the label of throw back.

Anyway, I think that people naturely recognize the sexes in general are different and long for defined roles for both. And naturally since those walls have been to a large degree destroyed and ridiculed. They have been built once again in the form of a BDSM relationship as it is safe from the scorn of being called a conservative value. There are some differences as Women can act in the role men exclusively enjoyed(Dom/Domme). But the vast majority of women and men gravitate to the Male/Dom Female/Sub model.

I see little difference between a Modern Dom/Sub and yester year Husband/Wife. Besides the obvious dress,scening, and more fetishes. But that has nothing to do with the  roles and general structure of the relationship. And people weren't so public with their sex lives back then either so who knows.

The longing in my opinion is for structure and acknowledgement of differences, these things run counter to what I understand the feminist movement to stand for. Which is there is no difference only oppression causing differences, and structure is just built to encage women. When in fact most like the structure and difference.

I don't want a woman that has masculine qualities, and most all women (I've met) don't want men with feminine qualities. (We're not talking looks here but ways of thinking, needs, and wants)

Anyway, that's how I see it, others will invariably disagree.

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 2:44:53 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		Quite the disclaimer upfront. Law schools will pine for you.

As for your main point, I do agree with it very much. Clearly defined roles, rather than being constricting, can be quite liberating. The only trouble I have with your analysis, is that it seems to leave out the KINK, which I feel is a strong driver of BDSM. KINK does not necessarily mingle with folks wanting/feeling comfortable with defined roles. I'm curious, too, what the confounding SWITCHES would have to say about all this.

Next, its been my experience in relationships that roles shape up in time, no matter what the lifestyle. For instance in my marriage, I just can't see my wife in the kitchen making anything substantive to eat. That's what I do.

Also, I don't think roles are nearly as important as how well people respond to one another --- and responsiveness to other is just not easily quantifiable or identifiable. To make something happen, though, I think a person needs to be open and in circulation. The less open and less in circulation --- the less chance of stumbling upon a strong connection to someone else. Sex, too, enhances one's connection to a lover --- this is undeniable --- and I think BDSM magnifies this power --- and clear roles help make intimacy easier to achieve and help make kink easier to integrate.

My Mistress has shown me many things about BDSM, and I am thankful to her for that, but more importantly I just find her someone I can respond to on a multitude of levels. Lucky for me too, that I have found someone else, while married, who has no built in expiration date --- and to whom I can involve myself while feeling secure in my marriage and secure in her marriage. Although I like the kink we practice, I also love to hear about what is going on in her life and what she thinks about things.

As for the younger generation stuff -- I suppose its always something "new" that they are attracted to that previous generations didn't "value" the same way.

And finally, sorry your last thread maybe got a little over personal about yourself, probably giving you all that irritating unsolicited advice --- I suppose that's a price you have to pay for putting yourself out there. As for me, no offense was ever taken, and I hope none was given.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 4/5/2006 2:49:21 PM >

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 3:08:42 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I don't think there is any evidence that we make rational decisions in choosing our partners, more that we make decisions and then rationalize our decisions. Most psychological theories as to why people choose a partner tend to collapse when the theories are looked at in practice. Many psychologists have started to think we are preconditioned both by genetic and experience towards choosing a partner which is why people often repeat mistakes when choosing a replacement partner after a failed relationship. Add to that economic and social factors and other variables, it becomes almost impossible to know why someone chooses a particular partner. Going back to the first sentence, we tend to look back in hindsight to justify our choices and we tend to make justifications there was no way of knowing when we first chose a particular partner.

As for more women wanting a D/s relationship, I'm not sure that is true. Women and men for that matter might hanker after old certainties but those certainties have gone and we are left with fantasizing and playing out old certainties but it's not reality. I've come across many women that want a D/s relationship in the sexual arena but want to keep their perceived new freedoms outside the sexual arena. The problem for women is that more freedom for them is more freedom for men and I know many men that wouldn't give up their freedom when they can do what they enjoy most without all the old traditional investments, especially when they are not in reality getting all the old traditional paybacks. As Serge Gainsbourg said, the leash is tied at both ends so who takes who for a walk, the master or the dog?

BDSM is fantasy. SSC means that it is not a reality, if it was we wouldn't even be concerned with SSC because what we are dealing with would be the natural scheme of things. BDSM isn't the natural scheme of things because one partner or the other can walk away. I contend if young women are attracted more nowadays to BDSM than before then it is for reasons of fantasy and not through rational decision making. I'd like to know how many REALLY WOULD give up their freedoms to live under the wing of a Dom. My guess is not many.

Blameless, shameless. The more desperate the eroticism, the more hopelessly women show off their heavy breasts, opening their mouths and screaming out, the greater the attraction. In contrast, a promise of light awaits at the limits of the mystical outlook. I find this unbearable and soon returned to insolence and erotic vomit - which doesn't respect anybody or anything. How sweet to enter filthy night and proudly wrap myself in it. The whore I went with was as uncomplicated as a child and she hardly talked. There was another one, who came crashing down from a tabletop - sweet, shy, heartbreakingly tender, as I watched her with drunken, unfeeling eyes.

Georges Bataille

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/5/2006 3:17:58 PM >

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 3:25:38 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		I wasn't offended at all ... I was more bothered that the meaning of the post was lost in unsolicited advice given by people that only know me from a message board. I guess some people see themselves as overly intuitive.
 
Excellent point on the kink aspect of this, and I'm thrilled that you brought this up. I was going to go there in the original thread, but decided to wait.
 
I actually have a friend that is talking herself into various soft kinks, because she is with someone that has these desires. It's actually the same girl I mentioned in the original post, that says she is smart enough to know who she likes and doesn't like. In her instance, she is clearly choosing to be "kinky" because she wants the stability of the relationship with the guy in question.
 
This totally flies in the face of the "lifestyle" being something inside of you, or something inate ... and, you know what? My list of what I would and wouldn't do, is almost totally dependent on whom I'm doing or not doing it with. I bet lots of people are like that.
 
I'm glad you brought up the kink aspect ... it does make the whole thing more complicated, and may be something the dedicated kinkster will never understand. This may be off-the-wall, but I have a feeling that a generation of people will decide to be kinky, because you get a more clearly defined relationship that way (at least in theory).
 
This also plays into a comment made my Needs ToUseYou, where he said:
 
"I see little difference between a Modern Dom/Sub and yester year Husband/Wife. Besides the obvious dress,scening, and more fetishes. But that has nothing to do with the  roles and general structure of the relationship. And people weren't so public with their sex lives back then either so who knows."
 
I completely agree with this ... and think it plays into what allot of young women are looking for. I wonder how many of my generation feel - "You know, this stable home and hearth is totally worth the weekly breathless spankings and having to go around without panties aroung the house."
 
I just wonder ...

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 4/5/2006 3:33:47 PM >

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 3:43:11 PM   
Cravings


Posts: 6
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		I followed the first thread and think that the main thing here is that women (sub or not) would prefer to be told the truth about their relationship.  We don't want to play "games" unless we know they are games.  I can see the appeal to the younger generation because they are so fed up with being told one thing and having the exact opposite happen.  It is much easier to know what is expected and what you can do in a relationship from the onset. 

And great job to Caitlyn for holding her own and making clear points on this message board. 

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 3:47:55 PM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

"You know, this stable home and hearth is totally worth the weekly breathless spankings and having to go around without panties aroung the house."


I think some people can have a stable home w/out the spankings.  And some will tolerate things (bdsm or otherwise) to get a stable home and find it does not exist. 

I can see choosing to be kinky or choosing to try activities you might otherwise avoid because a partner is into them.  Absolutely.  People do it all the time. I do not believe that embracing a role that is not part of your personality and belief system will lead to a long term stable relationship.

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 4:02:00 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
I feel that on some level, a good D/s relationship has a chance of providing this, and I think it is starting to attract lots of young women to the lifestyle. While I do understand that there will never be 100% clearly defined roles in any situation, I do think that the D/s lifestyle offers at least a chance to know where you stand in a relationship.


That touches upon one of the key reasons why I enjoy domination and submission. If implemented well, I believe D/s offers a machinery that may braid a very honest interrelational symbiosis between humans—a sort of "direct feed" into the more primal psyche which appears to be getting buried in favor of an idealized and ever more androgynous modern archetype.

I feel that in some ways refined BDSM is an answer to the increasingly confused climate of bullshit society games, fostering a culture of future and primitive, where we no longer have to be our predefined marital role, job title, ethnic persona or religious denomination. That through this communion we are reaching back and reclaiming parts of our nature—and in so doing, embracing a larger sum of the amazing universe that is human sexuality and behavior.



< Message edited by amayos -- 4/5/2006 4:03:11 PM >

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 4:08:42 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		YAY!  This die-hard feminist who is submissive to her dominant, DG, thanks you, meatcleaver, for your response.  I agree completely!
As for defined roles, some may have found them comforting but many found them constricting.  D/s works for me in my relationship with DG, it would not work for me in any other area of my life.  In the 'good ol' days', my life of being a divorced mother of one would not have allowed me to  have a career that paid well enough to house and feed my child.......who wants to return to that?  The 1950's husband/wife roles were necessitated not by consent but by the limited vision of society.   
The lifestyle is an option for those of  us who find joy in it.  It may be the natural order for some, but it certainly  is not for all. 
I celebrate that we can choose what makes us happy. 

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 4:48:49 PM   
OneX2


Posts: 157
Joined: 1/3/2006
Status: offline 		It's great to hear that you are so successful. I think to many people get lost in their supposed labels. It is always great to realize there is a difference.

Joseph

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 5:04:49 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

The 1950's husband/wife roles were necessitated not by consent but by the limited vision of society.   



Except for those that did consent to it, and "found" themselves in those roles.

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 5:29:13 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

The 1950's husband/wife roles were necessitated not by consent but by the limited vision of society.   



Except for those that did consent to it, and "found" themselves in those roles.


Agreed, some were happy, but others were not. I don't ever want to return to a time when *all* were expected to fit under the same blanket standard of acceptability. 

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 5:46:17 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		I agree with you on that *smiles*.
 
Level

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 6:13:35 PM   
JoeBlack


Posts: 25
Joined: 12/2/2005
Status: offline 		It's my opinion that much of this is cyclical in nature,sexual behavior is repressed for a period,then cracks appear in a wall of social propriety,until only the depraved shocks or turns heads..
Looking at ancient civilizations,this seems to be the case,as they have been thru the cycle more than once....
A relatively infant country,the US has not yet come full circle,but given time;it too will follow the same path as other civilizations.
In mho, kinks will become more mainstream,(look to the media);and what is taboo today,will become passe' next week.
Of course the zealots of the right will battle mightily,but inertia is difficult if not impossible to oppose.

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 6:26:26 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		From a point of  post hibernation, replete with food (Smoked salmon and hot buttered toast) and with a copious amount of percolated coffee before me,   bladder emptied and no internal gaseous build up detected and ~~~ the three brain cells located and connected (Big toe left foot, ass and somewhere in head), have a few thoughts on this matter……These are my views and the way I deal with and attend to such things…..


 I have memories of the Women’s Libers and at times were targeted by them and felt the brunt if their anger.   Mostly I was just the most available male there and they were acting in pack mentality.. No big problem.. I grew up in a home which believed in equal opportunity anyway so I had not too many points I disagreed with except with those who I am still in contention with .. Those who would jail all males who want strip clubs etc as being exploiters of female flesh and degrading women.. Funny how most of the women in those areas choose to be there at least in the wide areas I know and have friends within….  I have a problem with those who were so anti-war that they still harbour a hatred for Veterans.. One, whilst a guess in my home in Perth, Western Australia, located and burned all the photos I had from  ’Nam of my guys and damaged the rest of my memorabilia including my dress uniform etc.. Her physical attack on me as well as the damage she did ensured that she spent 7 years jail time and a bloody hard time from other inmates when they found out what she did. Do I hate her.. NO, I pity her.  


What I have personally found is that one attraction from those who are not just looking for kinky sex, is a desire, nay a driving need for structure in their personal life. Form and Format. Within this they can find a place in which they can be happy and grow.. Some use the military or other structured occupations and extend that into their personal life, others find other areas such as the “Kink” world, Gor, M/s, D/s, and the rest of BDSM… In doing so we open ourselves up in ways we normally wouldn’t especially in a vanilla life to additional or deeper areas of abuse, but also for additional or deeper areas of happiness, joy, satisfaction and growth as people.. There is a place and a partner/s for each, be they Saint or Sinner, Coward or Hero, King/Queen or slave, or just the average bloke or shieler…….

< Message edited by IronBear -- 4/5/2006 6:27:05 PM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 7:07:09 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		In my opinion, Leather doesn't help "unblur" the roles between the sexes. Men and women can be both Dom and sub, Master and slave. However, the role definement, no matter what sex is called to what role, IS important in helping give a relationship structure. I think that is the important point. Just my opinion, though.

Fire




_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 8:33:38 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

That touches upon one of the key reasons why I enjoy domination and submission. If implemented well, I believe D/s offers a machinery that may braid a very honest interrelational symbiosis between humans—a sort of "direct feed" into the more primal psyche which appears to be getting buried in favor of an idealized and ever more androgynous modern archetype.

I feel that in some ways refined BDSM is an answer to the increasingly confused climate of bullshit society games, fostering a culture of future and primitive, where we no longer have to be our predefined marital role, job title, ethnic persona or religious denomination. That through this communion we are reaching back and reclaiming parts of our nature—and in so doing, embracing a larger sum of the amazing universe that is human sexuality and behavior.


Hmmmm, flipping through my Amayos dictionary and translator and I think he's saying: BDSM breaks down barriers and returns DOM and SUB to core physical & emotional bonding.

I must say in my own experience, there's no arguing with a paddle.


(in reply to amayos)
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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 9:21:34 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam
In my opinion, Leather doesn't help "unblur" the roles between the sexes.


At the heart of your apparent objection is the assertion that there are no "normative" roles. I disagree.

I think one of the sad parts of trying to create an egalitarian society is that we sometimes use false ideas because they are politically expedient. I could make that statement about women's rights, gay rights, etc. But the sheer nihilism of some of the branches of Feminism has now cleared the way for new growth - and new growth will come. While the lessons taught by Feminism are quite useful in some settings - as noted already by Caitlyn - they are not very useful when it comes to the private life of cock and cunt.

There really ARE normative roles for men and women and I think it is that simple fact that generates the subject matter of this thread. Politically speaking, I would agree that alternative roles should be understood to be variations of what is normal and NOT perceived as abnormal or other (that's the politically dangerous part). We can embrace it all - but that doesn't mean we have to also reject the idea of what is most common or most normal.

MOST mean and women really do fall into roles that are clearly defined genetically. You can whine about it, struggle against it, and even create political movements opposing that view - but at the end of the day you will find greater happiness by merely accepting the truth about yourself and others and just simply dealing with those truths.

That's at least part of the secret of happiness - to accept yourself and others as you really are and to stop trying to fit into roles that simply do not match up with internal realities.




_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 9:34:32 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		I think a little bit of gender blending is good for the heart.  After all, I have a tendency toward metrosexual and androgynous men... take my Bowie addiction as an example, or my husband/ master's two hour grooming regime.

Seriously, though, I've never had a problem with clearly defining relationship roles, in or out of a BDSM context.  I make sure things are clear at the beginning and if feelings start to change, I bring them up in discussion.  I can't say it's always worked, but for the most part it has. 

I can see how many women would be attracted to the lifestyle for its set roles, but I can honestly tell you that that is not what drew me to it.  I'm drawn to it because it provides me with a period of release and surrender of my constant need for control, a chance to lose myself by giving myself to another.  It helps that I'm a painslut. 

The clearly defined (at least in the stereotypical sense) roles just don't appeal to me.  I'm too many things to simply be labeled subby and housewife.  My role is much more expansive and is constantly changing, as is my husband's.  I'm very outspoken, and other than play I stand on an extremely equal footing with my master/husband.  I work, he works.  I clean, he cleans.  We do what we have to do to get by.  I just wish we could equally share the pregnancy part.  This baby is kicking the crap out of me.

Edited because I keep making those "duh" grammatical mistakes.

< Message edited by NakedOnMyChain -- 4/5/2006 9:37:53 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

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RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II - 4/5/2006 9:50:58 PM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline 		I think what a lot of what people find when they discover the Lifestyle and the power dynamic, is that many for the first itme in their life have found not only a answer to the feelings they feel at their core whether Dominant, submissive or somewhere in between and an outlet to express themselves.
 
I think they also find for the first time, a safer way of doing that because of  the spoken about "rules" of the importance of Trust, Honesty and also SSC and RACK to be able to experience their sexual desires with someone in a relationship that is built on those principals, unlike the vanilla relationships which I find almost every action is covert. A lot of things are not spoken about, there is more assuming going on than direct communication. Most of the time sex and individual desires are rarely discussed, "it is just done" and because of societal influence it isn't really discussed in raw honesty so most vanilla couples go on in their relationships not getting their needs met.
 
So I think when someone discovers the possibility of a power dynamic relationship and find they can be honest, they can learn to trust, they can openly discuss their sexual leanings and desires it can be a very freeing powerful thing.
 
I think that some are exposed to WIITWD though friends, media, searching for whats missing inside on the internet, and for some it is the answers they have been looking for a long time, the thing that has been missing in their relationships.
 
I do agree that this is becoming more open to the younger generations and will only become more prominant in how people find their individual way in which they Chose to express themselves sexually and how important honest communication and trust is between people who commit in someway to other human beings.
 
I think it is a very possitive way of interacting in personal relationships and only hope that it can become more available and visable in a possitive way to generations to come. That it won't be looked upon as "kinky" but heathy and growth producing ways to interact in our personal relationships.
 
*Brightspot

_____________________________

"Comedy is NOT Pretty!" ~Peter Nelson

But..."May at Least One person have a sense of Humor!" ~KML.

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(in reply to caitlyn)
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