RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II

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Jasmyn -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/5/2006 10:23:15 PM)
So, with that as a disclaimer … The Shape of Things to Come, Part II quote: Modern society has blurred the roles between men and women. There has been much discussion about this in a variety of threads dealing with feminism, and readers are invited to check them out. We will not rehash them here. Buggar...just when I was about to burn my bra too...but the sub does thank you, he wasn't looking forward to being my towering inferno of lingerie considering he's the one wearing it ;) quote: This blurring of roles might work well in the workplace, in college and on athletic fields … but from the perspective of the small focus group of my 18 to 20-something friends, the blurring of roles is a huge problem in relationships. quote: I think on of the attractions of this lifestyle, and one of the reasons I think it will continue growing among young people, is that it offers clearly defined roles that people can fit themselves in. Personally I think that is more a reflection on the individual themselves than the lifestyle. People will always be looking for something they can 'fit' into that affords them a sense of identity and security and ego. The seduction of BDSM.D/s is the assumption a dom loves a sub and sub loves a dom. A forced umm, psuedo? love connection? Like the roles define the love emotion content... quote: In short, I don’t think it’s the greater access that the internet offers that is driving this, or the more ready access to pornography. It may seem that way on the surface, but when you get past the surface, you find lots of things that have gotten this “bump” by internet access, but have died on society's vine. Bottom line … the internet can only drive, what people somehow want … period! Or alternatively, one can plausibly make the argument exposure to it can create 'want'. So I will disagree in that I think the internet has played a huge part in driving the interests of BDSM in many (imo). As one offering professional services I can tell you I notice a huge difference between people who contact me because they have had the interests piqued and those who inherently habour the needs and fantasys. quote: So, why would young women want this? The answer is simple … there are clearly defined roles, and a lot of frustration when there aren’t defined roles. You could also attribute frustration to the individual's expectations of what they expect of a mate and the individual been unreasonably inflexible in those expectations. For sure BDSM.D/s based relationships afford role definitions but thats not to say others aren't having relationships that afford similar security and stability, not through having defined roles, but by simply being comfortable in themselves and their mate and the relationship they have together. quote: Using a personal example: One of the better relationships I have had was with a married man that was cheating on his wife … a relationship where I knew what I was to him, and he knew what he was to me. For us, it worked, and when he got back together with his wife and told me goodbye, it did hurt a little, but I could rationalize it … in that I knew what the score was when I entered the game. On of the reasons why I happily advocate sugardaddy type relationships, or kept woman, or any other seemingly un-intimate relationship. Each person involved has been honest and upfront about what it is the relationship is. There are no surprises. Each person involved has a sense of their own control over the dynamic and agree to it. quote: Discussing this with one of my friends, she made the comment that she is smart enough to know for herself what who she likes and who she doesn’t, and that all these bullshit society games are just insulting to her intelligence. I found this very interesting, as I feel the same way. If I want to see a guy that has some flaws (maybe a short fuse, or he wants to screw other girls), but is someone that excites me intellectually and physically, then that is my call to make … providing we have clearly defined roles in our relationship and we know each other for what we really are. I wouldn't neccessarily say it is the roles that are clearly defined, cause its seems a bit odd to say "my role is to be a short fused ass who screws other women" ...but rather the expectations and behaviours of each other have been honestly explored and accepted by the other. quote: I feel that on some level, a good D/s relationship has a chance of providing this, and I think it is starting to attract lots of young women to the lifestyle. While I do understand that there will never be 100% clearly defined roles in any situation, I do think that the D/s lifestyle offers at least a chance to know where you stand in a relationship. That knowing where you stand in a relationship is important and is ultimately one of the things I do enjoy about BDSM.D/s .. a sub is a sub is a sub is my sub....but I could easily get that in any relationship built on honesty. What drives me with BDSM.D/s ..is control. Thanks for the meaty topic ;)

Jasmyn -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/5/2006 10:59:20 PM)
quote: Original: cloudboy The only trouble I have with your analysis, is that it seems to leave out the KINK, which I feel is a strong driver of BDSM. ... and clear roles help make intimacy easier to achieve and help make kink easier to integrate. And what is one person's kink is someone else's vanilla. .. a lot of women aren't comfortable with their sexuality (hell for that matter a lot of men aren't) ..and by sexuality I don't mean gender sex, but rather sexuality and being sexual and encompassing all that is sexual about someone...what turns them on, how and why ... thinking to themselves, I'm a normal human being but what is wrong with me? When they find someone who not only adores there sexual self but willingly wants them to enjoy that part of them it can be overwhelming. I think too many people attribute their kink/sexuality with d/s ...when it exists with or without a d/s dynamic... but the open sexuality of the d/s dynamic can certainly be seductive and for some the first outlet they've found that allows them the experience. One of my favourite quotes follows, written by a married sub...the last line kind of speaks for itself...his everyday reality is puritisim and repression ...in d/s he finds his holy grail. quote: Zeddie I love the delicious way D/s resolves the paradoxes around sexual giving/receiving...one gives pleasure by taking away control, and in order to pleasure the other, pleases oneself...but what I also love about D/s is that it requires real honesty with oneself about sexual desire...and that means transcending puritanism and repression in a way which is often difficult for many people. http://nzbdsm.tripod.com/dom2.html

CERCKL -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/5/2006 11:30:42 PM)
quote: I can see choosing to be kinky or choosing to try activities you might otherwise avoid because a partner is into them. Absolutely. People do it all the time. I do not believe that embracing a role that is not part of your personality and belief system will lead to a long term stable relationship. quote: What I have personally found is that one attraction from those who are not just looking for kinky sex, is a desire, nay a driving need for structure in their personal life. Form and Format. Within this they can find a place in which they can be happy and grow.. Some use the military or other structured occupations and extend that into their personal life, others find other areas such as the “Kink” world, Gor, M/s, D/s, and the rest of BDSM… In doing so we open ourselves up in ways we normally wouldn’t especially in a vanilla life to additional or deeper areas of abuse, but also for additional or deeper areas of happiness, joy, satisfaction and growth as people.. First quote from Sensualips...I agree. kink is not D/s though can be an element of it...one can have kink in a vanilla relationship just as one can be in a D/s relationship and just do it missionary-style, have a cigarette and roll over...the dynamics of the relationship is what defines it. As for trying to be someone for someone else, I can say from My experience...it eventually dissolves...one way or another. IronBear...damn, nailed it as always. There has been more intensity, honesty, communication between Myself and lotus than in My previous relationship of twelve years...there is more vulnurability, exposure in being who you are, than hiding...but the rewards are intense. Again, I only speak from My experience...but the need to guide, protect, teach is an awesome responsibility and to be recognized for taking on that role for another causes Me to seek, be more aware than anything else has...well, painting is close but more individualistic. This path chosen has illuminated the potential of personal awakeness and awareness beyond hiding as a 'vanilla' ever could. Namaste, C

SoulfulSadism -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 12:48:42 AM)
<< I think on of the attractions of this lifestyle, and one of the reasons I think it will continue growing among young people, is that it offers clearly defined roles that people can fit themselves in. >> I agree. And not just in relationships - in most places. I always found my keenness level automatically go up a few notches whenever I come across someone who is unashamedly himself or herself. Not as a facade, but unaffectedly naturally. And I really can understand you when you it's much easier to accept such a person for what they are - including the good and the bad. At some point, I came to understand and believe - You have to create your own world and live in it. If you believe in it enough, it will stand up to any test anyone throws at it. It's not about avoiding society - it's more about avoiding ... facades and bullshit.

meatcleaver -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 2:04:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoulfulSadism At some point, I came to understand and believe - You have to create your own world and live in it. If you believe in it enough, it will stand up to any test anyone throws at it. It's not about avoiding society - it's more about avoiding ... facades and bullshit. This is rather naive. We might construct our own perception of the world and create in our imagination our own little world in which we can comfortably exist, in reality we interact in a world shared by others and that is unavoidable unless we disappear into some uninhabited wildness. As for avoiding bullshit and facades, we all change our behaviour depending on the situation we are in and the people we are interacting with. A person might like to fool themselves into thinking they are above such nonsense but it isn't nonsense, it is one the the essential things we are, we are political creatures and we cannot avoid that. The world isn't fixed and to create a fixed position for ourselves is absurd. 'Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd' - Voltaire

IronBear -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 2:28:39 AM)
However meatcleaver, there is a point where both can coexist. As a gorean Lifestyle Person, I have a life style designed toi meet my needs as a Gorean Free Man and Master of my Gorean Home, yet we do live in a small city and do interact within our community. Added to this we are Pagans and yet we again exist and interact within our local community to the point wher I carry out the Pastorla Duties of an ordained Priest (albeit a Pagan One) within the public arena and am known to lead a slave shopping leashed but suitably attired. There is never one way or the other.. The art is to locat the point of co-existance.. I call it COMPROMISE..... Most people have a live and let live attitude and those radicals have learned that is is not wie to provike a grizzly.. Some have even been cleansed when they have thown "Holy Water" over me to see if I would melt... The were "Baptised" in the nearest decorative fountain with the knowledge that should they desire to charge me with assult, they would themselves be so charged as well as being prosecuted for discrimination...... As I say, live and let live, unless you can place the head of another upon your shoulders and see through their eyes and experience their experiences..... However I do like your arguemt, it has merit and was an enjoyable post to read....

Lashra -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 5:14:14 AM)
People need to stop playing headgames and start being more honest, also people need to use good judgement and common sense when getting into relationships. That will alleviate alot of the problems. As for roles each couple needs to define their roles regardless of gender. We are not cut out of cookie cutter molds and what works for one couple will not work for another. I don't think women's lib hurt us I think it opened up alot of peoples eyes as to what was going on around us. What is happening now is a period of adjustment. You don't have years and years of oppression to have its effects wiped away in just the blink of an eye. You can almost compare it to the oppression that the blacks in the US suffered and how long its taken them to get forward in our society. Even to this day there is still racism in our country. The persons that are upset by women having equal rights are the ones who in my opinion feel threatened by it. For what other reason could they have to be so dead set against it? Fear is a powerful thing and it controls alot of peoples lives. I myself am a Dominant woman and do not fit the 1950's housewife style at all nor do I have any desire too. I'm a businesswoman I have no deserve to tend to home and hearth. In my relationships I try to be a friend with the man months before dating him, so he KNOWS many aspects of my personality before intimacy comes into play. I also think thats part of the problem people are in such a rush to get involved with someone that they don't bother to get to know them first. And I mean face-to-face contact, not just over the net or the phone contact. People sometimes wear the 'net as a mask to hide things about themselves. You need to be a friend before you become a lover, at least that is what I believe. I'll never forget what a Priest said to me one time he said "Walk as an angel, but be as wise as a serpent." KNOW what your getting into and see it for what it truly is. ~Lashra

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 6:19:12 AM)
quote: So, why would young women want this? The answer is simple … there are clearly defined roles, and a lot of frustration when there aren’t defined roles. That's one of the biggest fallacies of the scene. They really aren't defined clearly at all. One quick glance at the "What is a dom?" threads can clearly show this. The person still has to find out what being a dom means to THEM and how they will work in a particular relationship with another. It's the same no matter what type of relationship you are in. The fact that so many get INTO this hoping to box themselves into a neat, pre-formed box of definitions so that they won't have to actually work out their own way in this oh-so-confusing world just shows a desire to escape. And it never works. In a few months they are frustrated and angry, often "leave the lifestyle" once they realize things aren't any clearer here than they were elsewhere. quote: I do think that the D/s lifestyle offers at least a chance to know where you stand in a relationship. It isn't any more or less than a vanilla relationship. What makes you know where you stand in a relationship is self-awareness, clear communication, and shared expectations. Trying to short cut things by leaping into the "dom" or "sub" box never works.

Chaingang -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 6:48:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra ...and do not fit the 1950's housewife style at all... I think for those of us commenting on more traditional male-female roles from the inside the whole 1950's thing is a straw man. The 1950's TV version of life is but one interpretation of what we are talking about - a teeny, tiny one that. There are plenty of stereotypes to choose to choose from - most of them well defined in popular song, poetry, literature, movies, and romance novels. But underlying all of those superficial stereotypes is something more fundamental and that is true for the great many of us. And while I can accept that there are people like yourself in the world - a fact to which I give my full support and which gives me zero problem in any case - I damn well want my own area of life well staked out and respected in turn. I find it interesting that when we "male dom-female sub" types have a conversation amongst ourselves that people of an alternative viewpoint feel they must step in and help us clarify our positions. Please take this in the best way possible: thanks, but no thanks. I have very serious doubts that you have anything useful to share in this thread as the original scenario was posed by Caitlyn. And when you start in from the perspective of a known stereotype I feel even stronger about your inability to understand us. quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra As for roles each couple needs to define their roles regardless of gender. We are not cut out of cookie cutter molds and what works for one couple will not work for another. Maybe - but there are fairly large categories many of us do fit into. You have no problem calling yourself a "Dominant woman." Guess what? I have no problem calling myself a "Dominant Man." Caitlyn says she's a "Female Submissive." Everyone has a viewpoint...larger categories often suffice. How would you like it if I explained to you how roles work in a Femme Dominant scenario? Not so much, eh? ... quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Trying to short cut things by leaping into the "dom" or "sub" box never works. That makes perfect sense to me coming from someone identifying herself as "Switch." Guess what? It means nothing to us "male dom-female sub" types. Again, thanks but no thanks.

pollux -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 7:44:33 AM)
quote: If I want to see a guy that has some flaws (maybe a short fuse, or he wants to screw other girls), but is someone that excites me intellectually and physically, then that is my call to make … Of course it's your call to make. Just don't post up that "men are players!" after he ends up disappointing you, and then get your panties in a twist when someone points out your own hypocrisy. Purely theoretically, of course. We now return you to today's CollarMe sociology thread, entitled, "Men Are Lying Pigs, Therefore Young Women Are Increasingly Choosing to Enter Lifestyle D/s Relationships", by caitlyn. [;)]

Fawne -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 7:56:08 AM)
Thanks, caitlyn, thoughtful and interesting topic. <g> I took some of the same courses, I think ;) quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Modern society has blurred the roles between men and women. [/q] I witness that too. I am a fem slave with a male master. A structured dynamic grounds me, clarifies, and simply works, for me, him, etc. in life, D/s relationship. Feminism and "forced" equality don't work for me. Turn off! [q]This blurring of roles might work well in the workplace, in college and on athletic fields … [/q] Does it? In college, I'd agree, athough women's sports still lag way behind male sports in funding and interest. But, the progress there has been great. In the workplace, I see double standards exist. *For example: if a woman is decisive, assertive, she is called a bitch, while a man is a go getter and a leader.* *Personally, I have my own small biz and can walk that fine line between being perceived a lady while driving a hard bargain.* *However, I fit the sterotypical feminine image people are trad comfy with (slim, long hair, nuturing, soft = non threatening?) but I need carefully slip that biz edge in to succeed.* *I do think women are judged harshly.* *- Ok, example: Why does the world nit pick a female politician's clothing style and figure, while males are respected mainly for ability to perform, not judged so much on surface appearance?* I do think the benefit here ( of feminism and also D/s) is the lessened sexual repression, freedom for females allows us to, uh.. be "sluts" and/or choose and define our sexuality. I agree the internet is not the original source of the desire we hold, but a tool that has enabled us. Would we all be having this discussion otherwise? [:)] Have a great day everyone! fawne

Lashra -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 8:10:04 AM)
Maybe - but there are fairly large categories many of us do fit into. You have no problem calling yourself a "Dominant woman." Guess what? I have no problem calling myself a "Dominant Man." Caitlyn says she's a "Female Submissive." Everyone has a viewpoint...larger categories often suffice. How would you like it if I explained to you how roles work in a Femme Dominant scenario? Not so much, eh? You couldn't explain Female Dominance to me because I am quite aware of how it works and I follow my own counsel. [:D] So your suggesting we broaden our categories then? Ok lets start by adding Domswitch and subswitch, as switches are so greatly misunderstood and sometimes frowned upon. They should be recognized for the value they add to the community and the wonderful human beings that they are. As for everyone having differing viewpoints great everyone can and should but no one should take it upon themselves to say YOU people have to fit into this category. You HAVE to believe this in order to fit into (category). I am a woman so society thinks it has the right to tell me to stay home cook dinner and walk around in high heels and stockings all day long? I don't think so scooter. I do what I want to do thats the way its always been with me and thats the way it will always be until the Goddess decides its time for me to leave this place. ~Lashra

fyreredsub -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 8:24:29 AM)
woman and equal rights....hmmmmmmmmm..... yes i am allowed an education and b/c of that education i know make more money than my ex husband who doesn't pay child support yet asks for it to be lowered b/c i make so much more than him,lol. i started out in the lifestyle as a Domme, it helped me get over the past abuse i suffered at the hands of a step-father from hell when i was 10.along with all the various abuses that come into play b/c of such dysfunction that a child does not ask for. it was my version of sticking it to men goodbig grin.[;)] yeah baby eat my ass! now back to the point, i was raised in an italian catholic home in the 60's up north. i spent my formative wild years in texas w/ big guns,lol........ loved the bad boys with bikes.... so it is no surprise to me that Gor calls to me. i find i need to be stronger as a woman that knows herself when serving a Master than i ever needed to be when i strapped one on and said get on your knees and suck this to my boy. he only cared about the whip anyway..... just my 02 i like my well defined clear role...... isnt WIITWD great

Chaingang -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 8:25:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra So your suggesting we broaden our categories then? No, I am not. quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra I am a woman so society thinks it has the right to tell me to stay home cook dinner and walk around in high heels and stockings all day long? I don't think so scooter. So? You don't apparently care what society thinks any more than I care what you think about what I am doing. Big whoop. FWIW, I am not interested in telling anyone what to do unless I have dominion over them. Generally, that would be the exact same reason I do not generally enter into threads about female domination: the subject doesn't interest me and I can't easily imagine how or why I would have something to contribute to it.

Submotive -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 8:50:15 AM)
quote: I think on of the attractions of this lifestyle, and one of the reasons I think it will continue growing among young people, is that it offers clearly defined roles that people can fit themselves in. Although i understand the intention of this statement, the "roles" are not necessarily "clearly defined" since every individual is unique and so it's more that communication and honesty are clear, rather than many assumptions being made. Also i don't "fit" myself into a role, i unveil who i really am and reveal that to my Master. That's much different than attempting to be someone in order to fit into a defined role. quote: Using a personal example: One of the better relationships I have had was with a married man that was cheating on his wife … a relationship where I knew what I was to him, and he knew what he was to me. For us, it worked, and when he got back together with his wife and told me goodbye, it did hurt a little, but I could rationalize it … in that I knew what the score was when I entered the game. i hope this example is not indicative of what young people today think is fine. How about this guy's wife? Was she part of the "upfront agreement"? Another thing that's important, i believe is that this lifestyle is wonderful when it's confined to consenting adults and not inflicted on non-consenting people or animals. So, it's all a matter of personal choice and not necessarily clearly defined roles.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 10:05:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Submotive i hope this example is not indicative of what young people today think is fine. How about this guy's wife? Was she part of the "upfront agreement"? Another thing that's important, i believe is that this lifestyle is wonderful when it's confined to consenting adults and not inflicted on non-consenting people or animals. So, it's all a matter of personal choice and not necessarily clearly defined roles. uh-oh, I can hear CloudBoy coming as I speak. LOL

thetammyjo -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 10:58:05 AM)
I think that almost everyone likes defined roles -- not having them can result in confusion and competition and I don't think most people like that. Even children push to find out what their role and the rules are so the drive must be strong. However I strongly disagree that there is some genetic or natural role between the sexes for a variety of reasons. The basic one is ME. Even though my family tried to create this little submissive creature then failed terribly with me (and most of my siblings). It is not who I am in any way. I do like well defined roles. There are so many other things in life I want and need to do that competing over who will make decisions and be the authority is not one of them. I don't have time for it frankly. While equality and 50/50 sharing of authority and decision making between people is an ideal for me my experience tells me that on that one-on-one level is is very difficult. Most people do not want the responsibility involved in being the leader and many of our so-called leaders really only want the benefits without the work. To be blunt and probably insulting: Most people are sheep. Some people are wolves. A few people are shepherds. None of these are gender or sex specific but person specific.

Chaingang -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 11:05:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo The basic one is ME. Yeah, that's you. But it is also widely understood via the workings of natural selection that nature is using a shotgun approach - which accounts both for the "norm" and for the likes of you as well. Didn't anyone take Biology 101?

thetammyjo -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 11:09:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo The basic one is ME. Yeah, that's you. But it is also widely understood via the workings of natural selection that nature is using a shotgun approach - which accounts both for the "norm" and for the likes of you as well. Didn't anyone take Biology 101? Of course. I've also studied sociology, psychology, history and other fields of study. Human beings aren't as simple as biology. Why the need to invoke biology? Whenever I see "biology" as a reason for anything in human society its sounds/reads a lot like those arguments that break down into "God told me so" or "my way is the only way". There is no reason to make this biological that I can see unless someone feels they must back up their own way of doing things via some "great claim". You don't need these "great claims" to be who and what you are, folks. Making such "great claims" only serves to isolate others or yourself and to create an "us" vs. "them" mentality. Why say biology when you could easily say "for me, this feels more natural"?

meatcleaver -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come: Part II (4/6/2006 2:17:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo However I strongly disagree that there is some genetic or natural role between the sexes for a variety of reasons. The competition to get the best partner for procreation means that both sexes pursue varying strategies. The woman needs security through gestation, this might come in the form of group security (which is what modern western societies provide) or through the protection of a strong male. The male can never be certain that the woman is carrying his child so he needs to impregnate as many females as possible. This is a very crude picture I admit and in reality there are a host of variables in the equation but it does give a crude illustration that the sexes have very different natural roles. Modern society is only a few hundred years old, not enough time for evolution to get rid of those inherent strategies because they are no longer required because of the way modern society is constructed.

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