RE: The final week.

RE: The final week. (Full Version)

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Politesub53 -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:27:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk Wow, pretty simplistic sentence to wipe away the struggles of the Irish people. Think the treachery of the Crown has as much to do with the 6 counties being part of the UK than anything else. But like most things the English have done over the years they create havoc, take all the goodies, then kick the dust off their shoes and go home to leave the place in conflict. I just love this sort of ignorance from people without a clue of UK or European history. So, it wasn't Europeans who took over India and had the thought that it made sense to keep what is Pakistan and Bangledesh as part of that country...... And it wasn't Europeans to took hold of congo and rwanda and stuck the tribes together. And made sure that they sold dissent between them? Yeah, ok. I was wrong then... Well equating the Europeans/English as you did, is like equating the USSR/USA. Super powers of the time. Rwanda and the Congo had nothing to do with Britain either. So if your gripe is colonialism, talking about it on a thread about the UKelection isnt exactly on topic. Taking your comments on India and Paistan though you miss some critical points. After WW2 Britain was bankrupt, with no funds to control the unrest in India. The Indians themselves got what they wanted, a split along religious lines. As for bleeding them dry, India got both democracy and a civil service, as well as Asisa largets railway, because of colonialism. Prior to that it was a collection of Princely states, constantly waring with each other. How do you suggest it was split up, as the Indian people wanted, or back into small independent states ? Incidentally India is now the largest democracy in Asia. It is easy to knock colonialism, but without it would you have an America, or Australia ect ect. Since mans earliest days it has taken place. So to blame all of todays ills on the Empires of old is inherently wrong. It is all to easy to pounce on the negatives and ignore the positives.

Aneirin -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:27:53 PM)
Cromwell lead the revolt against the Crown in England and won, he was instrumental in breaking the power the monarchy held over the peasant. Later in Ireland, he came to be known as Cromwell the bastard for his actions there, but he had become a great man, and probably with that a bit full of himself, he like so many others who get the power bug, go too far. But at the time of Cromwell, my ancestry was there, for my ancestry is largely Irish. But that was the past, now is the present and the future is coming at us fast. True there were errors of judgement and downright lies, but I will not apologise for the actions of those in the past, nor will I for anything I have no influence in in the present. The future of us all depends on what we do now, harking on about the past and the people of the past serves no purpose except to extend ill feeling towards people who do not need, want or deserve it. Why continue with all this, let it go and move forward, even forward from this point, make a better world for our children.

Politesub53 -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:32:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk Bollocks, Just own up to it for fucks sake. Wasn't it Cromwell who stuck all of the Protestants in NI in the first place? You did the deed and now are complaining about the result? So how far back do you wish to go. Wasnt it the Irish who invaded Scotland. Wasnt it the British who were the original celts in these Isles ? At which point in history do you wish to start from ? This is what I mean by taking it all in context.

pahunkboy -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:36:41 PM)
Anerin, Your people are way out of control. DO something to bring them in line with domestic tranquility. !!!

DCWoody -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:37:41 PM)
The lack of honesty in Anerin not taking responsibility for 'Cromwell sticking all the protestants in Northern Ireland'? I've tried to be reasonably polite, but I can not come up with any useful comment in reply to such overwhelming lack of knowledge. I suggest you give up on this discussion.

pahunkboy -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:39:47 PM)
That also is perplexing. Why Catholics and Protestants refuse to get along.

DomYngBlk -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:44:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk Wow, pretty simplistic sentence to wipe away the struggles of the Irish people. Think the treachery of the Crown has as much to do with the 6 counties being part of the UK than anything else. But like most things the English have done over the years they create havoc, take all the goodies, then kick the dust off their shoes and go home to leave the place in conflict. I just love this sort of ignorance from people without a clue of UK or European history. So, it wasn't Europeans who took over India and had the thought that it made sense to keep what is Pakistan and Bangledesh as part of that country...... And it wasn't Europeans to took hold of congo and rwanda and stuck the tribes together. And made sure that they sold dissent between them? Yeah, ok. I was wrong then... Well equating the Europeans/English as you did, is like equating the USSR/USA. Super powers of the time. Rwanda and the Congo had nothing to do with Britain either. So if your gripe is colonialism, talking about it on a thread about the UKelection isnt exactly on topic. Taking your comments on India and Paistan though you miss some critical points. After WW2 Britain was bankrupt, with no funds to control the unrest in India. The Indians themselves got what they wanted, a split along religious lines. As for bleeding them dry, India got both democracy and a civil service, as well as Asisa largets railway, because of colonialism. Prior to that it was a collection of Princely states, constantly waring with each other. How do you suggest it was split up, as the Indian people wanted, or back into small independent states ? Incidentally India is now the largest democracy in Asia. It is easy to knock colonialism, but without it would you have an America, or Australia ect ect. Since mans earliest days it has taken place. So to blame all of todays ills on the Empires of old is inherently wrong. It is all to easy to pounce on the negatives and ignore the positives. So what you are saying is that you are what sorted them and they should be grateful for the pleasure?

Politesub53 -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:46:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy That also is perplexing. Why Catholics and Protestants refuse to get along. The answer is simple. Centuries of bad blood, Ireland and the UK were all caught up in the politics of the time. The answers to the shys and wherefores are both deep and complicated. Henry the VIII for instance, wanted to remain Catholic, as did one, but not both, of his daughters. Slowly but surely things have changed for the better.

DomYngBlk -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:48:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DCWoody The lack of honesty in Anerin not taking responsibility for 'Cromwell sticking all the protestants in Northern Ireland'? I've tried to be reasonably polite, but I can not come up with any useful comment in reply to such overwhelming lack of knowledge. I suggest you give up on this discussion. So then the Irish revolution was simply a misunderstanding on their part? You were really just trying to help them?

Politesub53 -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:50:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk So what you are saying is that you are what sorted them and they should be grateful for the pleasure? I notice you didnt explain how you would have partitioned India. Your comment above is both shallow and simplistic and misses the big picture, as I said in my post. Sure, the Empire wasnt perfect, but it wasnt all bad either.

DCWoody -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:50:51 PM)
Just trying to help them what? I did think you didn't know what you're talking about, now I think I don't know what you're talking about. Possibly instead, probably either.

pahunkboy -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:53:12 PM)
Polite- I guess alot of the history is not something I know alot about. It would make sense how long time riffs can simmer and flare up. So the intricacies of across the pond- are not something many here ponder... we have a local here that needs 50 feet more or he has to move his house- the neighbor wont sell him it- even tho they have 80 acres. But I am sure there is more to that whole story then one first guesses. It likely goes back 20 years- between the 2 parties. So- riffs are certainly part of event.

Politesub53 -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:54:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk quote: ORIGINAL: DCWoody The lack of honesty in Anerin not taking responsibility for 'Cromwell sticking all the protestants in Northern Ireland'? I've tried to be reasonably polite, but I can not come up with any useful comment in reply to such overwhelming lack of knowledge. I suggest you give up on this discussion. So then the Irish revolution was simply a misunderstanding on their part? You were really just trying to help them? Apologies for getting off the election topic. What do you know of the Irish revolution ? What do you know of Chrurchill sending the british Fleet to Belfast just prior to WW1, because the protestants had armed for a civil war. What do you know of the thousands of Catholics who joined the British army at that time ? Like i keep telling you, there is a bigger picture to all this.

Politesub53 -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:56:07 PM)
Pahunk England and Ireland have a history going back over a thousand years. It wont get put right overnight, and it didnt start with Cromwell.

DCWoody -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 3:58:51 PM)
Just one thousand? No worries about off topic, we're well hijacked by now.

Politesub53 -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 4:02:17 PM)
I was going back to circa 1100 when the Pope gave England permission to invade Ireland. I didnt want to confuse things by going back to the Vikings founding Dublin [;)]

DCWoody -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 4:08:22 PM)
I was thinking of Irish raiders off cornwall pre-roman :) Which is unfortunate, start a few hundred years later and we can just blame the damn Danes creating havoc, taking all the goodies, and leaving us in conflict.

Politesub53 -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 4:10:03 PM)
Getting back to the election.I am now of the opinion that PR would be a fairer way to elect MP`s. At present many must have doubts voting Liberal, incase it opens the way for other parties. I think the fact many disatisfied Tories voted Liberal back in `97 partly explains the landslide. On the major issues. No party is looking good on any of the topics. None have come out and said exactly how and when they will cut the budget, at least not with sums that look feasible. Immigration, while a worry, is still a red herring, as 80% comming here are from the EU anyhow. It seems to me that whoever gets in will have to take a few drastic steps. They are not saying what or when, so all we can do is guess. I thought Browns interview with Paxman tonight showed him in a better light than in the debates.

Politesub53 -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 4:11:17 PM)
Woody, I am suprised no one has blamed Thatcher. [8D]

DCWoody -> RE: The final week. (4/30/2010 4:18:12 PM)
I think I already said my bit vis a vis PR, as for honesty about cuts, no not really....but I don't think it's any different to normal manifesto talk....no-one really goes into an election shouting about tax rises and spending cuts, just this time it's what most attention's being paid to. That said, there is a difference between them IMO, cons starting off with the big austerity theme, then moving on to opposing the NI rise, increasing inheritance threshold...and notably sparse plans all round....looks very dodgy, while Libs talk of tax changes are more substantial in making them 'fairer', and such big changes give them obvious scope for getting away with big increase in total revenue while doing it. EDIT: NI in this case meaning National Insurance...:)

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