RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur

RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:17:48 PM)
There's a difference between a psychological example and a thorough analysis of Poe's text. This one is the former, however storied it may be. A quick search on the Literature Resource Center database will yield several of the latter.

Silence8 -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:18:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery ~FR~ Incidentally, for anyone interested, Poe's "The Purloined Letter" is a wonderful analysis (in short story form) of how and why critical thinking fails, in individuals, governments, and society. And then, check out Lacan's analysis of it (it's in the beginning of Ecrits, which has been translated). It's fucking marvelous! http://www.lacan.com/purloined.htm Throw in a reference to Lévi-Strauss and Althusser and I might fall in love. ;-) - LA What? I read too trendy authors? I'll admit that 'Elementary Structures of Kinship' makes me a little giddy. I have an intellectual crush on Slavoj Zizek as well. So shoot me. [:D] It's hard to find obscure authors that are good... but when you do, you can lord it over your stupid friends for years and years...

Silence8 -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:21:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery There's a difference between a psychological example and a thorough analysis of Poe's text. This one is the former, however storied it may be. A quick search on the Literature Resource Center database will yield several of the latter. It's basically a vehicle for his ideas, I'd admit. I would do the same thing. To be honest, though, the original text gets ridiculously long-winded at times; it's almost pathologically detailed, although I guess that's sort of the point. I was reading it, and, just thinking, 'What the fuck is going on here? Has Poe lost his mind?'

Musicmystery -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:25:07 PM)
Those are the parts to go back to later. It's beautifully crafted, because not only does Poe lay out good arguments for why critical thinking fails, complete with research support from the ages, but also gets his readers to replicate the mistakes. It's brilliant.

brainiacsub -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:25:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy There is no way you can possess the ability for critical thinking and then talk about religious beliefs and the impact of God on one's life. The two are not synonymous. List of Christian thinkers in science A Ranking of the Most Influential Scientists, Past and Present New study reveals the percentage of scientists who believe in God is the same as 1916 count Jet, April 21, 1997 The same percentage of scientists believe in God today as did some 81 years ago, a new study shows. The new study conducted by noted historian Edward J. Larson of the University of Georgia in Athens asked 1,000 scientists including biologists, physicists and mathematicians, if they believed in God. Some 40 percent of the scientists said they do believe in God. The number is the same percentage found in the famous 1916 survey conducted by noted psychologist James Leuba. Leuba thought belief in God would drop among scientists as education improved, but he didn't have any polling evidence to support that claim, said Larson. Firm Below is a quote from the latest Leuba survey. I'm not sure what you are quoting. "In 1996, we repeated Leuba's 1914 survey and reported our results in Nature[3]. We found little change from 1914 for American scientists generally, with 60.7% expressing disbelief or doubt. This year, we closely imitated the second phase of Leuba's 1914 survey to gauge belief among "greater" scientists, and find the rate of belief lower than ever — a mere 7% of respondents. Leuba attributed the higher level of disbelief and doubt among "greater" scientists to their "superior knowledge, understanding, and experience" [3]. Similarly, Oxford University scientist Peter Atkins commented on our 1996 survey, "You clearly can be a scientist and have religious beliefs. But I don't think you can be a real scientist in the deepest sense of the word because they are such alien categories of knowledge."[4] Such comments led us to repeat the second phase of Leuba's study for an up-to-date comparison of the religious beliefs of "greater" and "lesser" scientists. "

domiguy -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:26:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy There is no way you can possess the ability for critical thinking and then talk about religious beliefs and the impact of God on one's life. The two are not synonymous. List of Christian thinkers in science A Ranking of the Most Influential Scientists, Past and Present New study reveals the percentage of scientists who believe in God is the same as 1916 count Jet, April 21, 1997 The same percentage of scientists believe in God today as did some 81 years ago, a new study shows. The new study conducted by noted historian Edward J. Larson of the University of Georgia in Athens asked 1,000 scientists including biologists, physicists and mathematicians, if they believed in God. Some 40 percent of the scientists said they do believe in God. The number is the same percentage found in the famous 1916 survey conducted by noted psychologist James Leuba. Leuba thought belief in God would drop among scientists as education improved, but he didn't have any polling evidence to support that claim, said Larson. Firm You routinely just post shit that you have never read. Nothing new here. How many of these "religious scientists" were actually persecuted, jailed or discredited by the church? I know some scientists that were killed. You do also have to understand the times that man of these scientists lived in and under. What was Einstein's belief system?. I can understand how someone might believe in God. God can be viewed as a very nebulous thing. I wonder how many scientists believe in the happenings as portrayed in the Bible or that Jesus Christ is the son of God? Or that intelligent design should be taught in our schools?

Icarys -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:28:53 PM)
quote: "In 1996, we repeated Leuba's 1914 survey and reported our results in Nature[3]. We found little change from 1914 for American scientists generally, with 60.7% expressing disbelief or doubt. This year, we closely imitated the second phase of Leuba's 1914 survey to gauge belief among "greater" scientists, and find the rate of belief lower than ever — a mere 7% of respondents. Leuba attributed the higher level of disbelief and doubt among "greater" scientists to their "superior knowledge, understanding, and experience" [3]. Similarly, Oxford University scientist Peter Atkins commented on our 1996 survey, "You clearly can be a scientist and have religious beliefs. But I don't think you can be a real scientist in the deepest sense of the word because they are such alien categories of knowledge."[4] Such comments led us to repeat the second phase of Leuba's study for an up-to-date comparison of the religious beliefs of "greater" and "lesser" scientists. " Lol

domiguy -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:30:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub Below is a quote from the latest Leuba survey. I'm not sure what you are quoting. "In 1996, we repeated Leuba's 1914 survey and reported our results in Nature[3]. We found little change from 1914 for American scientists generally, with 60.7% expressing disbelief or doubt. This year, we closely imitated the second phase of Leuba's 1914 survey to gauge belief among "greater" scientists, and find the rate of belief lower than ever — a mere 7% of respondents. Leuba attributed the higher level of disbelief and doubt among "greater" scientists to their "superior knowledge, understanding, and experience" [3]. Similarly, Oxford University scientist Peter Atkins commented on our 1996 survey, "You clearly can be a scientist and have religious beliefs. But I don't think you can be a real scientist in the deepest sense of the word because they are such alien categories of knowledge."[4] Such comments led us to repeat the second phase of Leuba's study for an up-to-date comparison of the religious beliefs of "greater" and "lesser" scientists. " It's because Firm and treasure come out here with the idea that the possess the ability to have a meaningful conversation. They are routinely proven to be wrong. they don't even read their own sources....What a Hoot!!! They are kind of slow.

Musicmystery -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:31:06 PM)
quote: Leuba attributed the higher level of disbelief and doubt among "greater" scientists to their "superior knowledge, understanding, and experience" Here's the problem though--this is speculation, not a conclusion drawn from the methodology of the study. quote: You clearly can be a scientist and have religious beliefs. But I don't think you can be a real scientist in the deepest sense of the word because they are such alien categories of knowledge." This is nonsense. Music and science are alien categories of knowledge too, yet some scientists are fine musicians. That they are different merely speaks to the earlier point that there are different ways of knowing.

Icarys -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:37:00 PM)
quote: Music and science are alien categories of knowledge too, yet some scientists are fine musicians. Yes but they wouldn't be true scientists! That's why I was laughing at it..I find it very ironic..It sounds like a lot of other bs you here around here at times :>

brainiacsub -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:39:17 PM)
I'm not sure I'm following you. The quote is saying that religion and science are very different types of knowledge. Knowledge based on faith is often mutually exclusive to knowledge gained through logic and experimentation. Most scientists know this. I'm not sure why you consider it nonsense. It's pretty straight forward.

Musicmystery -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:39:52 PM)
Actually, it's just as silly, for real. The ideal of the Renaissance man is long gone. Now, specialization is mandatory, and anyone who doesn't specialize is a jack of all trades, master of none. Ridiculous, yes, but that's the mantra among otherwise theoretically intelligent professionals.

brainiacsub -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:41:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: Music and science are alien categories of knowledge too, yet some scientists are fine musicians. Yes but they wouldn't be true scientists! That's why I was laughing at it..I find it very ironic..It sounds like a lot of other bs you here around here at times :> You admittedly didn't even go to college. What do you know about the qualifications of a scientist, true or not, and why should your opinion be considered over someone who is an expert in the field?

Musicmystery -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:42:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub I'm not sure I'm following you. The quote is saying that religion and science are very different types of knowledge. Knowledge based on faith is often mutually exclusive to knowledge gained through logic and experimentation. Most scientists know this. I'm not sure why you consider it nonsense. It's pretty straight forward. Different types of knowledge are not necessarily mutually exclusive. If they are here, that remains to be shown.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:43:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy There is no way you can possess the ability for critical thinking and then talk about religious beliefs and the impact of God on one's life. The two are not synonymous. List of Christian thinkers in science A Ranking of the Most Influential Scientists, Past and Present New study reveals the percentage of scientists who believe in God is the same as 1916 count Jet, April 21, 1997 The same percentage of scientists believe in God today as did some 81 years ago, a new study shows. The new study conducted by noted historian Edward J. Larson of the University of Georgia in Athens asked 1,000 scientists including biologists, physicists and mathematicians, if they believed in God. Some 40 percent of the scientists said they do believe in God. The number is the same percentage found in the famous 1916 survey conducted by noted psychologist James Leuba. Leuba thought belief in God would drop among scientists as education improved, but he didn't have any polling evidence to support that claim, said Larson. Firm Below is a quote from the latest Leuba survey. I'm not sure what you are quoting. "In 1996, we repeated Leuba's 1914 survey and reported our results in Nature[3]. We found little change from 1914 for American scientists generally, with 60.7% expressing disbelief or doubt. This year, we closely imitated the second phase of Leuba's 1914 survey to gauge belief among "greater" scientists, and find the rate of belief lower than ever — a mere 7% of respondents. Leuba attributed the higher level of disbelief and doubt among "greater" scientists to their "superior knowledge, understanding, and experience" [3]. Similarly, Oxford University scientist Peter Atkins commented on our 1996 survey, "You clearly can be a scientist and have religious beliefs. But I don't think you can be a real scientist in the deepest sense of the word because they are such alien categories of knowledge."[4] Such comments led us to repeat the second phase of Leuba's study for an up-to-date comparison of the religious beliefs of "greater" and "lesser" scientists. " domi made the claim that critical thinking skills and religious belief were mutually exclusive. I gave him examples that refute his assertion. If you aren't sure what I am quoting, following the links is always helpful. Firm

Silence8 -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:43:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Actually, it's just as silly, for real. The ideal of the Renaissance man is long gone. Now, specialization is mandatory, and anyone who doesn't specialize is a jack of all trades, master of none. Ridiculous, yes, but that's the mantra among otherwise theoretically intelligent professionals. Specialization is the death of creativity. [shudders at the thought] Probably, for that matter, human free will as well, unless something, err, miraculous happens...

Musicmystery -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:43:41 PM)
quote: What do you know about the qualifications of a scientist, true or not, and why should your opinion be considered over someone who is an expert in the field? He's talking about "twue" scientists, vs. perhaps "sub"scientists. Hence the joke.

Icarys -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:44:00 PM)
quote: Knowledge based on faith is often mutually exclusive to knowledge gained through logic and experimentation. Why? Who says they are? Those who beat the either or drum? Why can't science reinforce religious belief?

Musicmystery -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:45:14 PM)
quote: Specialization is the death of creativity. That just takes the misconception to the other extreme. I'm damn glad cardiologists specialize, and that they are creative about improving cardic treatment and care.

belladevine -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/1/2010 9:48:32 PM)
There are many scientists that say they believe in God. I do not think that all the same scientist believe in "religion". Science reveals many things in the natural world and upon new revelations the mind becomes energizes with new thoughts. An intelligent and educated person can begin to see through the new revelation how much more there is still to learn. An intelligent person then can begin to imagine things unknown and try to develop more theories, more theories leads to the effort to find proof. Sometimes the revelation of knowlege is so overwhelming that it cause an intelligent person to feel very humble and wonders....maybe there is a God! Maybe there is a God and maybe there is not. I know only 1 thing for sure. I believe in myself and the power of intelligence. IF there is a God, then wisdom and knowledge would have to be the God's defining attributes. IF a person wanted to emmulate God it would only seem logical to try to posess knowledge and wisdom.

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