RE: Civilisation ?

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luckydawg -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 4:57:51 PM)
Are Pygmies a static independant culture that has not changed for 6000 Years? "Moreover, the tiny hunters' ancient bonds of trade with local farmers—a quasi-feudal system that swaps Mbuti field labor and forest products for food crops and metal tools—are becoming frayed. "They are easy to cheat," a roadside merchant says of the Pygmies along the way. "Like children." " http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0509/feature5/text2.html I can find dozens of references to the fact that African Pygmies trade with outsiders, and have not had a static culture for 6000 years. This is just one. They are real people, not cute monkeys.

thompsonx -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 5:03:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead I see, so no tool using society is in any way comparable to the ecologically sound hgs utopia run by the mbuti, regardless of how little impact they have had on their environment. Is that what you're saying? No. That is not what I have said or implied. A hgs is specifc designation it has nothing to do with utopia. The mbuti are pre-stone age...they do not make stone or iron tools...yes they use rocks as hammers but they do not fabricate stone tools. They live in an eco-system that supports them without being depleted. This does not preclude hgs from making tools or even making stone or iron tools not all hgs are the same. Some members of hgs have and use modern tools including firearms...some mbuti use firearms. Some mbuti shift back and forth between hgs and hanging out in the towns around the forest they live in. Even the mbuti farm within the forrest but the only crop they grow is marijuana but strangely enough no food...which would indicate that they get all the food they need from hunting and gathering. I'm surprised you haven't dismissed the native Americans on those grounds as well. (And the Phoenicians were North African, not European.) No the phonecians were from the area of the Levant down into the Red Sea area and Carthaghe(where that hanibal guy's brother was the boss man), was their western outpost. quote: Eden is a mythical place in the bible...so if you believe that anyone made a conscious choice between a fairy tale and industrialization then we have no common ground for discussion because I do not believe in magic as a lifestyle. Really? You're doing a good impression of it in this thread so far, then. You also don't seem to understand metaphors or hyperbole.

luckydawg -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 5:22:22 PM)
Pygmy life expectancy adn child mortality rates. This one is of the Aka, which as you pointed out is the same as Mtubi, just like Jones and Smiths... "About 30,000 Aka live in the tropical forests of northern Congo and southern Central African Republic. Most Aka live in remote areas of the tropical forest where the population density is less than one person per square mile. Aka women average six live births during their lifetime. One-fifth of Aka children do not live to their first birthday, and close to half die before they reach age fifteen. Infectious and parasitic diseases (from the clean drinking water) are the most common causes of death. Due to the high child mortality (death) rate, average life expectancy at birth is only thirty-two years of age. However, if a young person lives to age fifteen, he or she will probably live to age fifty-five or older. http://www.africaguide.com/culture/tribes/pygmies.htm This was the source of my first number. On looking around more, I find that is kind of low. In fact current scientific thinking is that the condition of being a pygmy (they are not just found in africa) is an evolutionary result of extremely low life expectancy. http://www.pnas.org/content/104/51/20216.full http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-pygmies-evolved-to-be-shorter

thompsonx -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 5:23:14 PM)
quote: I said no such thing: do you not feel that complaining that I'm misinterpreting your statements and then turning around and putting a spin on a facetious comment that suits your argument that I must be retarded if I disagree with you makes you look like a bit of a twat? I asked if your environment was being eroded and you responded with the fact that they were building all around you. I pointed out that I was talking about your natural enviroment and you said the water was fine. I point out that it is not and must be purified to use you call that acting like a twat. I call it discussion. Various animals that live in the waterways have been making strong comebacks for the last twenty or so years. There's been a minor boom of (among others) kingfishers and water shrews. Some rivers are shitholes. Others aren't. legislation on polluting waterways over here is having a lot more impact than anything your own EPA can manage, put it that way. I agree our EPA leaves much to be desired.

thompsonx -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 5:25:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic Take your feud somewhere else please. You both are inflamed over who is right and who is wrong. We are having a discussion and if you would like to join you are more than welcome. Consider the possibility that you are both right and wrong. Is it possible that there is no right and wrong here ...just stuff?

pyroaquatic -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 5:32:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg So t, how should the readers interpret your attack on my vote (that 100% illiteracy, incredibly high infant mortality rates, no surplus food production, no specialists of any kind) in not an attaractive or viable path ofr the future of mankind? (what this thread is supossed to be about our opinions on an essay advocating "reen Anarchy".) There is such thing as Choice. and the Next Choice. Causation causes Causalities. It is inevitable and resolute throughout History. If you are making a choice to consume beef you are also making a choice in supporting the cow industry. And the Slaughter. And the inspections for infections and other associated costs of dealing with the livestock. Beef-eaters plan to kill cows and they are going to "HAVE IT THE AMERICAN WAY" Instant gratification, you are 'full'. ----- Meat from fifth level trophic entities.... cow, pig. That means the energy is being transferred FIVE different times. Do not get me wrong... I eat meat. I don't like it but I do it. I would rather eat yogurt and have peanut butter if I need protein. Or you can go the other route and eat insects. Good in protein and they are at the third trophic level. Fungi are also delectable but tricky. I would count on a mycologist to tell me if a wild fungi is edible, toxic, or that other kind. I don't need the otherkind though.... I have a brain but it gets stuck into ruts easy enough. Fungi are at the First and Second Level. Owning Cows for Meat is not worth it (FOR ME, DO WHAT YOU WILL). Owning a Yogurt cow and having a cow be a companion. Is it wrong that I want to paint a cow now?

pyroaquatic -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 5:34:42 PM)
What I have been reading for the past couple of pages is NOT a discussion. There is no CONFLICT RESOLUTION. CONFLICT RESOLUTION. CONFLICT RESOLUTION. CONFLICT RESOLUTION.

luckydawg -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 5:38:16 PM)
"Clean Water is A Challenge for Congo's Rural Poor Clean water is essential to life! The high child mortality rates in Congo is directly related to drinking water from unimproved and unsafe sources. Clean water save lives! Generally, children under five years old die from severe or chronic diarrhea caused by poor water quality." http://www.endingextremepoverty.org/2009/03/clean-water-is-a-challenge-for-congos-rural-poor.html "Despite ongoing clashes in the east of the country, a study published earlier this year asserted that less than one percent of all deaths in the DRC were directly attributable to violence. "The majority of deaths have been due to infectious diseases, malnutrition and neonatal- and pregnancy-related conditions," stated the report, 'Mortality in the Democratic Republic of Congo: An ongoing crisis', produced by the IRC and the Burnet Institute - a medical research and public health organisation based in Melbourne. All too often, the infectious diseases in question take hold because water supplies are contaminated. "Mainly the causes (of diseases in the DRC) are water quality, whether or not the water has to be boiled, the hygiene is not clean around the house, and such," says Steven Lauwerier, deputy representative in the DRC for the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF). " http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=42109 How many children in the UK die from lack of safe drinking water every year? The idea that living naturally in the forest gives you safe clean drinnking water is nonsense. If I had to drink from a random river, I would take the UK over Congo anyday (and the USA over either).

luckydawg -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 5:44:08 PM)
actually Pyro, the OP clearly is approving of instant gratification. HG societies are instant gratification. Industrialization requires accumulation of surplus, and defered reward. As to the rest of what you wrote? I have no clue what you are babbling about. But then you think it is social programing that causes you to consume (eat) and die.

luckydawg -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 5:47:05 PM)
Pyro, there can't be a discussion with conflict resolution, when certain posters are insisting on having thier own facts. Child mortality rates are a fact. Life Spans are facts. That litteracy is more than reading a TV guide is a fact.

pyroaquatic -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 5:47:20 PM)
Do not make such an assumption. ALWAYS BOIL WATER. Bring it Just to a boil and let it sit. The boiling point kills many germs and bacteria. That is nonsense. If they choose not to boil water to clean it then they have also chosen illness. I can also tell you are a driver. Why? You seem to not notice the amount of oil that gets washed into septic systems. Boil all Water. Or a little bit of bleach. If you do not you will feel like you are dying but have to live through your stomach and intestines being.... bombed. That is the best way I can describe it. Charcoal helped, actually.

luckydawg -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 5:50:24 PM)
Pyro, how could nomads boil water with no metal? Where would a pygmy get bleach? And where do you come up with the nonsense that I haven't noticed oil that gets washed into the septic system?

thompsonx -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 5:51:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg So t, how should the readers interpret your attack on my vote (that 100% illiteracy, incredibly high infant mortality rates, no surplus food production, no specialists of any kind) in not an attaractive or viable path ofr the future of mankind? (what this thread is supossed to be about our opinions on an essay advocating "reen Anarchy".) What attack? I asked what value literacy had to the mbuti. I pointed out the infant mortality was irrelivant. Surplus food production is unnecessary if you pick your food up daily. Why do they need specialist? I have not made a case in favor of hgs. I have pointed out how they live baised on research done by Turnbull and others. You either agree with me ( and several others, and vote for not an attractive future) Or you vote with Pyro and Anerin, that yes it is an attractive viable future. Your mistaken belief that I must do as you say is incorrect Or your just a troll shitting in this thread, because you have some obsession with me. Which really is the most likely. Or perhaps I am just someone you do not like? The idea that the Mtubi have been static for 6000 years is nonsesnse. They have limited one sided (its exploitive of them) contact with outsiders, the farmers around thier forests, and have for over 2000 years. THey have traded and worked for the farmers for thousands of years. The field work does not support that contention. That the mbuti have had limited outside contact is not in dispute. Of course if you have some data to substantiate that two thousand year claim we would all be glad to see it. I can give at least one example of a Mtubi, who wanted to get out of his culture. The one that Turnbull took as his gay lover and brought home to die in the USA. That one chose to leave his culture, right or was he kidnapped by Turnbull? You are speaking of Dr.Joseph Towles who was born in Senora, Virginia on August 17, 1937. In 1957 he moved to New York City to pursue a career as an actor and writer. He met Turnbull in 1959 and they exchanged marriage vows the following year. Turnbull is widley understood to have romantizied the mbutis ( he fell in love with one). No he clearly states he fell in love with all of them. Dr. Grinker details this in his biography of Turnbull.

pyroaquatic -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 5:53:26 PM)
LuckDoggin, That is simply not the case in The United States of America. Marketing and Advertising. Instant Gratification. You get this and you will be Happy. Credit Cards will help you out too! Thanks, okay, and goodbye. As to my other array of words, SIMPLY put.... Eating meat is an inefficient way to harness the power of the sun.

luckydawg -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 5:59:59 PM)
Pyro, quit babbling.....how do you boil water with out metal? where do you get bleach in the woods?

pyroaquatic -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 6:03:40 PM)
Why would you assume this? That I have no metal to boil my water. I have metal. Adapt or Die. Edited to add: Babbling. Accuse me of babbling!?

luckydawg -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 6:11:58 PM)
What attack? I asked what value literacy had to the mbuti. No you declared they had no need to read TV guide. Lie 1 I pointed out the infant mortality was irrelivant. Nope you declared I was wrong, Lie 2. though I would like to see an explanation as to why Infant mortality is irrelevant. Surplus food production is unnecessary if you pick your food up daily. Sure if a life expectancy of 30ish and child mortality rates close to 50% are desirable.Why do they need specialist? Why does anyone? To live longe,r richer(in all forms), healthier lives I have not made a case in favor of hgs. I have pointed out how they live baised on research done by Turnbull and others. Nope actually just by Thurnbuill and his partner. A radical celebrety intellectuall from the 60s, who is widley regarded as having romanticised these folks. And ignored thier extensive contacts with the surrounding farmers, that has existed for thousands of years. And you havent actually shown that they agree with you, that the Pygmies are not poor, have no words for Murder or Rape, or have had a fixed unchanging culture for 6000 years They can not trade with and adopt the language of their neighbors, and have a static fixed unchanging culture. The two directly contradict each other.

luckydawg -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 6:14:06 PM)
Pyro, we are talking about living in a stone age culture, whether that is a viable attractive future. To return to the pre farming level of society. Where they had no metal pots. Or bleach. Camping is lots of fun. That's not what is being discussed here.

luckydawg -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 6:17:49 PM)
quote: LuckDoggin, That is simply not the case in The United States of America. Marketing and Advertising. Instant Gratification. You get this and you will be Happy. Credit Cards will help you out too! Thanks, okay, and goodbye. As to my other array of words, SIMPLY put.... Eating meat is an inefficient way to harness the power of the sun. Yep babbling, making silly words "Luckdoggin" and having no point. Completely off topic. babbling...

pyroaquatic -> RE: Civilisation ? (5/5/2010 6:42:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg quote: LuckDoggin, That is simply not the case in The United States of America. Marketing and Advertising. Instant Gratification. You get this and you will be Happy. Credit Cards will help you out too! Thanks, okay, and goodbye. As to my other array of words, SIMPLY put.... Eating meat is an inefficient way to harness the power of the sun. Yep babbling, making silly words "Luckdoggin" and having no point. Completely off topic. babbling... Like yourself? Being Off Topic? The topic says.... Civilisation. Civilization for Usa. And I waded through that mud storm of individuals essentially biting each other. At some other point later I had stated: quote: Eating meat is an inefficient way to harness the power of the sun. That is pretty simple and does not sound like babbling. You are attempting to hook me and have me inflamed. I wonder how many people ignore you? Hey people, am I babbling? Let us get a consensus on who thinks I am babbling complete and utter garbage. Yay or Nay. Use your brain, read, then make a counter claim. Okay LUCKYDOG? Do you understand me?

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