RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask?

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MistressOfGa -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/5/2010 10:20:49 AM)
quote: He knows that I wont pull out the "topping from the bottom" card simply because telling me what he wants IS an order. Brava! Claps hands

subsfaith -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/5/2010 11:06:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa Example: Sub: Mistress, I sure would look good wearing a maids outfit while cleaning Mistress: Oh? Would you now? Sub gets nervous by tone of Mistress and drops the subject. Few days later: Sub: Mistress, you should see this new maids outfit that I bought. Mistress: I'm sure it is lovely Most importantly, he isn't being honest. He wants the Mistress to see him wearing this, yet he isn't saying that. He is manipulating the Mistress, teasing her perhaps, and on the second occasion overtly trying to control. I was taught to express my wants clearly. 'I want....' or 'I would like...' It wasn't a question so I wasn't forcing him to answer me. And it gave him the opportunity to reward me with things I want when the appropriate time came for him. If I did as the above did in the example, I would get completely ignored, punishment enough.

marshalp -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/5/2010 1:27:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subsfaith quote: ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa Example: Sub: Mistress, I sure would look good wearing a maids outfit while cleaning Mistress: Oh? Would you now? Sub gets nervous by tone of Mistress and drops the subject. Few days later: Sub: Mistress, you should see this new maids outfit that I bought. Mistress: I'm sure it is lovely Most importantly, he isn't being honest. He wants the Mistress to see him wearing this, yet he isn't saying that. He is manipulating the Mistress, teasing her perhaps, and on the second occasion overtly trying to control. I was taught to express my wants clearly. 'I want....' or 'I would like...' It wasn't a question so I wasn't forcing him to answer me. And it gave him the opportunity to reward me with things I want when the appropriate time came for him. If I did as the above did in the example, I would get completely ignored, punishment enough. If i understand corectly, there is an ongoing relationship between the submissive and the Domme. So, like in any relationship there could be unique ways of communicating... it could be very much possible that the sub cannot communicate his wants clearly & there is no intention of manipulation when he hints at his wants in a roundabout fashion. I can understand the miscommunication earlyon in a relationship. But in an ongoing & established relation, both the parties understand the other person's mind and talk (& listen) in the manner which causes least misunderstandings. My two cents... Dommes, you know your subs quite well, if there can't express their wants clearly listen to his cues & hints. & subs, please express your wants & desires in as clear form as you can.

Andalusite -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/6/2010 8:04:53 AM)
I don't hint around, my Master encourages me to ask for things I am interested in, although he may not indulge me. Often, the answer is, "after dinner" or "I have other plans for you tonight," but he never accuses me of topping from the bottom. Since this was apparently an issue earlier in your relationship, I can understand that it is difficult for him to be direct. My former submissive of 5 years, and my current submissive playpartner were/are very forthright about their needs as well. However, if one or both of them had approached it as you describe, I wouldn't feel they were being manipulative or dishonest. It would come across as shy and tentative, and I'd think it was a bit sweet that they were pushing themselves to let me know what their needs were, even though they were afraid of rejection. I have to say that an amused "Oh, really?" type of response like you described in your OP would make me back the heck off of asking for that activity again, unless they were submissive toward me. I'd get the impression that the person who answered me that way wasn't interested at all, but was trying to be reasonably polite about it. So, unless they brought it up, since they were obviously aware of my interests, I would drop it.

Ambyant -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/6/2010 9:17:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMillgrove I don't mind the round-about suggestion. I get it. Sub wants to play maid. Doesn't want to come right out with it. no problem to me. Would say exactly what the mistress in your example said. Then, maybe a week later. when the sub does something I think is quite excellent, will reward by saying.. oh.. why don't you wear your maid's uniform and we'll have a little tea party. ((sweet!)) We're not all open--talk talk talk types. Some people are more subtle. I don't miss much and am fine with gentle hints. Actually I think it's rather polite and sweet, and not manipulative. Journals are great for understanding where everyone's head is at, particularly since I often comment on the journal or make a clarificaton or get ideas from the fantasies. ((My cub has a backload of journal entries from his time spent serving Me, how does One set a link to another's on collarme?)) Every d/s dynamic is different. I tend towards dreamer's view that that mutual pleasure, fullfillment and self-realization make for a happy, satisfying relationship. Not everyone wants that style of life together, but it's one I've loved. I agree here - this is the clearest example for Me, thank you MsMillgrove! The only bit I will as since it has not shown up yet is: he's cleaning , and unless there is a conflict in what I wish to have happen during his cleaning time, I am just as amused to have him in a saucy outfit as having his danglies caged up and contained. (the default outfit) The task is still accomplished. yess. let them suggest anything - it is a sweet thing to see a war of hope, desire and chagrin all in those eyes as they await My decision. Always the best Diva~Zya

MistressOfGa -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/6/2010 9:18:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Andalusite I don't hint around, my Master encourages me to ask for things I am interested in, although he may not indulge me. Often, the answer is, "after dinner" or "I have other plans for you tonight," but he never accuses me of topping from the bottom. Since this was apparently an issue earlier in your relationship, I can understand that it is difficult for him to be direct. My former submissive of 5 years, and my current submissive playpartner were/are very forthright about their needs as well. However, if one or both of them had approached it as you describe, I wouldn't feel they were being manipulative or dishonest. It would come across as shy and tentative, and I'd think it was a bit sweet that they were pushing themselves to let me know what their needs were, even though they were afraid of rejection. I have to say that an amused "Oh, really?" type of response like you described in your OP would make me back the heck off of asking for that activity again, unless they were submissive toward me. I'd get the impression that the person who answered me that way wasn't interested at all, but was trying to be reasonably polite about it. So, unless they brought it up, since they were obviously aware of my interests, I would drop it. Andalusite, My OP wasn't about me personally. I was curious as to the thoughts of other's with regards to my examples. Yes, in my own past I have had some difficulties with submissives approaching me, but the examples I used were just examples. I am like you, if I were a sub and my Domina said "Oh, Really?", I wouldn't even bother asking for that activity again. I would see it as a closed door not to be opened again, until she decided to open it. It is a good thing I am not a submissive [:D] Thanks for responding [:)] MoGa

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/6/2010 9:27:54 AM)
"thanks for sharing" is another useful response. [:)]

MistressOfGa -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/6/2010 10:04:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus "thanks for sharing" is another useful response. [:)] lol that is so you!

LadyPact -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/6/2010 11:04:08 AM)
Then again, the "oh, really" or "thanks for sharing" type of response might just prompt someone to learn how to ask for things directly, rather than play this less than straight forward/ possible manipulation game. If someone hinted that they wanted a particular activity, but didn't necessarily come out and ask if we could engage in it, and then didn't bring up the subject again because of My response, they really would have only themselves to blame for not getting what they wanted. Since what I want is open and honest communication in the dynamic, I find that to be more important.

MistressOfGa -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/6/2010 11:07:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Then again, the "oh, really" or "thanks for sharing" type of response might just prompt someone to learn how to ask for things directly, rather than play this less than straight forward/ possible manipulation game. If someone hinted that they wanted a particular activity, but didn't necessarily come out and ask if we could engage in it, and then didn't bring up the subject again because of My response, they really would have only themselves to blame for not getting what they wanted. Since what I want is open and honest communication in the dynamic, I find that to be more important. Adores LP

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/6/2010 11:10:38 AM)
We are so demanding... [:D]

MistressOfGa -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/6/2010 11:12:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus We are so demanding... [:D] ..and bossy too [8\|]

marshalp -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/6/2010 12:31:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus We are so demanding... [:D] ..and bossy too [8\|] Totally, what do poor people like us do with You [:)]

MistressOfGa -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/6/2010 12:56:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marshalp quote: ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus We are so demanding... [:D] ..and bossy too [8\|] Totally, what do poor people like us do with You [:)] Ah..the question is not what you can do with me, it is what you can do for me and what it is that I can do with you [;)] heh

youngsubgeoff -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/6/2010 3:44:35 PM)
ahhh but MoGa, my question is, "what can you do for me, that I cant already do for myself"? Also, Lady Hib agreeing with me? Elizabeth, its the big one, the big one, ohhh elizabeth its the big one! [:D]

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/6/2010 4:01:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: youngsubgeoff ahhh but MoGa, my question is, "what can you do for me, that I cant already do for myself"? Also, Lady Hib agreeing with me? Elizabeth, its the big one, the big one, ohhh elizabeth its the big one! [:D] I agreed with DOMIGUY this year, several times. Check the basement for pods!!![:D]

MistressOfGa -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/6/2010 10:25:12 PM)
quote: ahhh but MoGa, my question is, "what can you do for me, that I cant already do for myself"? I have given this great thought. I have come to the conclusion that you could do anything you set your mind to do, for yourself. But isn't it much funner having a partner to do it with you? [:D] Checks the basement for pods Hmm..nothing to see here, move along burst out laughing

Andalusite -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/7/2010 8:03:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Then again, the "oh, really" or "thanks for sharing" type of response might just prompt someone to learn how to ask for things directly, rather than play this less than straight forward/ possible manipulation game. If someone hinted that they wanted a particular activity, but didn't necessarily come out and ask if we could engage in it, and then didn't bring up the subject again because of My response, they really would have only themselves to blame for not getting what they wanted. Since what I want is open and honest communication in the dynamic, I find that to be more important. The "thanks for sharing" kind of response sounds awfully passive-agressive and sarcastic to me, like "Well bless your little heart." Depending on their tone and expression, it would feel to me like a direct attempt to shut off communication, rather than encourage it. I'd probably try to discuss it further - the communication issue itself, not the activity that prompted it, and find out what was going on, what they meant by it, if they were just trying to tease me, or whatever. "Oh, really?" doesn't seem quite as strong in that direction, so I probably would have just backed off and let them make the next move. In general, I'm pretty direct, open, and honest in communicating my needs and desires, but I think it's very reasonable and understandable for someone to feel shy about talking that directly about it. I haven't always been able to communicate this well about things, it took time and also learning about what I wanted. It still can feel a bit difficult to bring it up, especially if it is important to me. Everyone is different though, so it's quite possible that the people who you've used that strategy with do find it helpful in being more direct. I'm not interested in focusing on whose fault it is that either person's needs aren't being met, or that communication isn't as effective as it could be. I think it's better to focus on how to meet both people's needs, and find lines of communication that work in the present, for people as they are in the moment, rather than holding to an abstract ideal. Actually, when I've been dominant toward someone, a little shyness and uncertainty and nervousness about bringing up something they want can be rather hot, and push my protective buttons.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/7/2010 9:32:04 AM)
Andalusite, you are such a good snark detector!! [:)] I can only speak from my own experience here, with lots of pesky mens. One KNEW that I HATE MEDICAL PLAY. Like, HATE. Yet he persisted in showing me catheters and medical websites. Well how many ways does a person say NO THIS IS NOT HAPPENING? What MoGA was talking about is not SHYNESS, but genuine passive-aggressive sneakiness. Anticipatory SERVICE is okay with me, to a degree, but for heaven's sake, don't try to direct my play! It's like the guy that comes to the first meeting with a strap on "for your collection". Gee, hint much? (Having a cranky day, I guess! [:D])

Lockit -> RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? (5/7/2010 10:02:43 AM)
When I say 'Oh Really', you can bet there are going to be many paragraphs that come after it! In my world, I warn men about something I do. I do it so naturally that sometimes I don't even realize I have done it until I do. "Oh really' and 'now' are words that have a lot of impact! Now means to listen up and oh really could mean a few things, but most certainly means, step lightly, pay attention to what you are saying as I am very interested and it could cost you or oh really(?) cool, interesting, I want to hear more. I don't see many of the dominant's around here just saying 'Oh really' and not following it up with something else at some point actually! We each my have our style or things we are different in, but from reading and knowing some of you, I can almost hear or know some of what some of you would say! lol If a guy can muster up some hints/nags, he can muster up the bravery to actually be forthright somehow. Then there is a big difference in hinting one time and more than once. I know I personally jump on something like that pretty quickly. We may have even talked about it and it could be something we are going to do. But the more I feel I am being led, that someone is expecting me to do it their way, in their time, just how they want it and they push me... it will be a cold day in hell before it happens. Anyone who really knows me, knows I care about them, knows I want to know and will ask repeatedly and I will dig out any holding back. I will see to my partners needs! But if you push me, manipulate, nag or don't take my word yes or no on something... your time is short.

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