You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun

You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 9:37:14 AM)
Today's Times op-ed page has an interesting article by Gail Collins.Seems there is a bill being proposed that would ,using the "no-fly list" curtail the Second Ammendment right to purchase weapons.On the face of it ...it seems perfectly reasonable to bar those we don't trust in our airplanes from purchasing weapons.....not so fast say's Senator Graham(and others)....full story here .... http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/opinion/06gcollins.html?ref=opinion Opinions please....

FirmhandKY -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 9:47:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Today's Times op-ed page has an interesting article by Gail Collins.Seems there is a bill being proposed that would ,using the "no-fly list" curtail the Second Ammendment right to purchase weapons.On the face of it ...it seems perfectly reasonable to bar those we don't trust in our airplanes from purchasing weapons.....not so fast say's Senator Graham(and others)....full story here .... http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/opinion/06gcollins.html?ref=opinion Opinions please.... What judicial process is gone through in order to put someone on a "no fly" list? Is the ability to own weapons a right, or a privilege? Firm

tazzygirl -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 9:49:50 AM)
The same no fly list that banned a pre-schooler from flying? HOUSTON - Edward Allen’s reaction to being on the government’s “no-fly” list should have been the tip-off that he is no terrorist. “I don’t want to be on the list. I want to fly and see my grandma,” the 4-year-old boy said, according to his mother. Sijollie Allen and her son had trouble boarding planes last month because someone with the same name as Edward is on a government terrorist watch list. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10725741/ Until they can get it right... and someone can actually use a little common sense when these situations arise... lets face it, what threat can a 4 year old boy be to deny him the right to board a plane?... then they should rethink this new rule.

pahunkboy -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 9:55:08 AM)
Wow. I agree with Tazz.

rulemylife -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 9:56:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY What judicial process is gone through in order to put someone on a "no fly" list? Is the ability to own weapons a right, or a privilege? This gets thrown around a lot by everyone but what exactly is the difference between a right and a privilege?

mnottertail -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 9:59:05 AM)
common sense aside, if they make the SDN list they won't pas the NICS check thru FBI anyhow, they will get a deny, no reason needed. you can make the law, but in fact they can't buy guns now, by way of doing business.

FirmhandKY -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 10:01:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY What judicial process is gone through in order to put someone on a "no fly" list? Is the ability to own weapons a right, or a privilege? This gets thrown around a lot by everyone but what exactly is the difference between a right and a privilege? Seriously? Firm

tazzygirl -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 10:07:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY What judicial process is gone through in order to put someone on a "no fly" list? Is the ability to own weapons a right, or a privilege? This gets thrown around a lot by everyone but what exactly is the difference between a right and a privilege? Without using a textbook definition to define the two, here is how i see them a right is something that cannot be taken away, no matter what, unless you, yourself, throw that away... such as the right to freedom, then committing a crime... you committed the crime, you threw away the right to freedom. a privilege is something you are granted, such as a driver's licence, provided you can pass the test and show proficiency in your ability to drive, you possess car insurance, ect ect ect. a privilege you have to show you earn... a right is something you inherited and cannot be taken away without due cause.

pahunkboy -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 10:10:33 AM)
There is no point debating this. we are in for alot more "terror".

slvemike4u -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 10:27:55 AM)
Granted the list has problems(the 4 year old an obvious one)but all of that aside if ones name is on the list shouldn't a red flag pop up at Homeland Security when one attempts to purchase weapons ? Are we really okay with listing those as too dangerous to fly...while allowing them to purchase weapons?

brainiacsub -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 10:31:04 AM)
Firm, a few years ago I managed a program for the DOJ out of Sacramento ensuring that the state database of persons prohibited from owning/carrying firearms was properly updated to include new changes to state law expanding the the list of offenses that would disqualifiy someone from owning a gun. The system was used by law enforcement, the courts, and arms dealers to perform state mandated background checks for those trying to buy a weapon. The new laws at the time included prohibiting someone from buying a gun who had court order restraining orders for domestic violence, domestic violence convictions, outstanding warrants for violent felonies, court ordered treatment for certain mental health disorders, and ex cons with felony records of violence, to name a few. I would say that at least in CA, owning a gun is a privilege easily revoked at the whims of the voters.

tazzygirl -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 10:35:59 AM)
braniac i see all those exceptions are violations against the law. Those, to me, fall under the heading of a right that someone tossed away... the mental health disorder is self explanatory. For example, someone with vision problems or seizure disorder cannot gain a DL... it just makes sense.

brainiacsub -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 10:39:39 AM)
Mike, see my response to Firm. As someone who has experience tactically implementing such a system, I can tell you how incredibly complex and costly it is to do such a thing. One of the reasons CA is so broke is that the voters approve propositions that sound good without any sense of how much it actually costs to implement them. I can tell you that updating the prohibited persons database as well as making sure that that system could exchange data with other systems, like courts, law enforcement and DHHS databases cost well over $10MM. I can't imagine what it would take to implement something like that nationally, but there was talk at the time of the DOJ using the CA model and systems as a prototype for a national effort.

pahunkboy -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 10:40:37 AM)
Brainiac cant come to the phone. She is really a sleeper cell front gal for the new and improved Al Quaeda.

brainiacsub -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 10:58:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl braniac i see all those exceptions are violations against the law. Those, to me, fall under the heading of a right that someone tossed away... the mental health disorder is self explanatory. For example, someone with vision problems or seizure disorder cannot gain a DL... it just makes sense. tazzy, I guess my point was that our rights are guaranteed by the Constitution. I would be a little suspicious if the voters could revoke them without judicial review. I believe it is the job of the courts to determine under what conditions someone's rights may be revoked. I am all for responsible gun laws as well as controls that make sense, and I don't disagree with the CA prop that revoked the rights of many offenders, but I would prefer these issues be left up to the courts to decided. To be fair, I do not recall if the CA prop was ever challenged and upheld by the courts. I sure as hell don't trust the voters.

mnottertail -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 11:05:17 AM)
I dont know what or why CA even did that, thats precisely what the NICS background check is, and SDNs are on it, as I expect no-flies, and it is run thru the FBI database and is only flawed by typical idiocies. Don't know how much better we can do. Don't understand the need for a law here, it is fait accompli far as I can tell. You have typical political opera-bouffe here, nothing else. (and by the way, you mere mortals cannot get an auto AK-47 (I can)). Ron

tazzygirl -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 11:05:18 AM)
lol i think we are saying the same thing. hasnt someone who has committed a crime been judicially reviewed? or someone with a mental disorder been medically evaluated and the person gone through a smiliar review?

brainiacsub -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 11:17:24 AM)
Sure, but that judicial review only includes determination of guilt and sentencing, not the automatic revocation rights, unless they are part of the sentencing guidelines.

tazzygirl -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 11:18:34 AM)
Hmmm.. thought if you committed a violent crime, or a felony, you could not own or posses a fire arm of any kind. Or is this just the rule in some states?

mnottertail -> RE: You can't fly...but damm it you can still buy a gun (5/6/2010 11:23:22 AM)
certain states will allow you to re-apply for the right to bear arms after giving certain proofs. (states right more restrictive than federal government)

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