Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/7/2010 5:06:46 PM)


Forget the SEC civil lawsuits and the long-shot FBI criminal investigation, the sharkskin suits at Goldman Sachs appear to have broken a much more pedestrian law, New York's law against gambling. By acting as "bookmakers," a Class "E" Felony punishable by up to four years in jail, they've also provided a way for mom-and-pop mutual fund investors to recover their losses.

In New York, a person who lost an asset to an illegal bet is entitled to get it back. So if Goldman Derivatives were illegal bets, everyone who's investment lost value to a derivative scheme is eligible to recover it. Here's the legal breakdown (and while this stuff is dry, the payoff is worth it") The New York Consolidated Code Sec. 225.00:

Defines "Gambling"
as when someone "stakes or risks something of value" on a contest or future event they don't control. upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome."
Defines "Bookmaking" as "advancing gambling activity by unlawfully accepting bets from members of the public as a business, rather than in a casual or personal fashion, upon the outcomes of future contingent events." States that, "Bookmaking" is "Promoting Gambling in the First Degree" a "class E felony" punishable by a jail term of up to four years.


 And here's the big kicker while money bet by the loser may only be recovered within three months under New York law property doesn't have this same limitation. So if an investment (a non-cash asset) was lost to a derivative bet, the investor is entitled to sue the winner (and the bookie, in this case Goldman Sachs) for damages. Many people have pooled investments that rely on hedging (gain-loss averaging) to ensure a certain profit. Late last month, according to Investment News, the Securities and Exchange Commission announced they were investigating use of derivatives by mutual funds, traded funds and other instruments. If your mutual fund or retirement plan (for example) used a Goldman (or Goldman-like) derivative gambling scheme that originated in New York and you lost value because of it it appears that you are entitled to get it back. Courts may decide that It was an ill-gotten gambling gain.

If New York courts find that Goldman Sachs was really an illegal bookmaker, it might be time to throw that investment toward prison construction.   http://smartvstupid.com 





auditguy -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/7/2010 5:17:22 PM)

Goldman takes calculated risks.  Gambling is plain blind betting.  They have mountains of research that will guarantee that no one would even think of bringing that lawsuit.




pahunkboy -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/7/2010 5:56:15 PM)

taking a bath is a risk.  but turning on the water and then going to Vegas while it is running- will flood the house.




rulemylife -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/7/2010 5:59:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: auditguy

Goldman takes calculated risks.  Gambling is plain blind betting.  They have mountains of research that will guarantee that no one would even think of bringing that lawsuit.


I don't know about that.

Do you play poker or blackjack?

Both involve taking calculated risks.






pahunkboy -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/7/2010 6:19:11 PM)

yeah with widows and orphans funds. lol




Termyn8or -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/8/2010 12:43:14 AM)

Hunky, I am impressed. This is an angle from which I haven't even considered.

If they can bust a bunch of old retirees in FL for playing pinochle for a penny a point, what should the be able to do with these MFs ?

And yes, by that definition, Goldsacks is in violation of the law. Whether it applies to me or not is not in question, but it DEFINITELY applies to them. Wanna be prosecutor ?

T




pahunkboy -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/8/2010 7:13:29 AM)

I also thought- why cant the state insurance commissioner get them on insurance fraud.




auditguy -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/8/2010 9:16:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

yeah with widows and orphans funds. lol


No one forced the widows and orphans to put their money with Goldman, but they didn't seem to have a problem when they were making 12% year over year returns on their investments.  Maybe they should be conservative and put their money into FDIC insured savings accounts with very low guaranteed return.

Maybe next time they should read the prospectus before they decide to play with the big boys or maybe they should sue the trust administrator who was supposed to read it and inform them of the risks.




rulemylife -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/8/2010 9:45:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: auditguy

No one forced the widows and orphans to put their money with Goldman, but they didn't seem to have a problem when they were making 12% year over year returns on their investments.  Maybe they should be conservative and put their money into FDIC insured savings accounts with very low guaranteed return.

Maybe next time they should read the prospectus before they decide to play with the big boys or maybe they should sue the trust administrator who was supposed to read it and inform them of the risks.


What an absolute crock.

The average person with a 401k is not going to wade through a lengthy prospectus for each and every company that their fund manager invests them in.

And in case you haven't been paying attention, there is widespread litigation against brokerage firms and other companies that have put profit ahead of their customers.




brainiacsub -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/8/2010 9:53:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: auditguy


No one forced the widows and orphans to put their money with Goldman, but they didn't seem to have a problem when they were making 12% year over year returns on their investments.  Maybe they should be conservative and put their money into FDIC insured savings accounts with very low guaranteed return.

Maybe next time they should read the prospectus before they decide to play with the big boys or maybe they should sue the trust administrator who was supposed to read it and inform them of the risks.

Wow...this must be like the 14th or 15th dumbest thing I've ever read on CM. Certainly makes the top 20. Congratulations!




auditguy -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/8/2010 10:04:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Wow...this must be like the 14th or 15th dumbest thing I've ever read on CM. Certainly makes the top 20. Congratulations!


Well thank you, I am usually at the top of most lists.




auditguy -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/8/2010 10:06:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

What an absolute crock.

The average person with a 401k is not going to wade through a lengthy prospectus for each and every company that their fund manager invests them in.

And in case you haven't been paying attention, there is widespread litigation against brokerage firms and other companies that have put profit ahead of their customers.



Exactly they should be taking it up with their 401K administrators (Fidelity or whomever) and not with Goldman.  The pension plan administrator has the job of informing his/her clients. 

Also for most of these companies profit is what their customer is looking for, and the lawsuits will take care of all those who were frontrun.  The system works as long as the government stays out.




brainiacsub -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/8/2010 11:15:01 AM)

You are simply on the wrong side of this issue. Even Alan Greenspan, who was the poster child for deregulation, now admits his perspective was very flawed. Let's forget for a minute the specifics of what Goldman did - packaging and selling securities that were designed to fail and then betting against those same investments - and focus just on your "widows, orphans, and 401k administrator" statements. The ratings agencies like Fitch, Moody's, and Standard & Poors, are supposed to decide for the "widows, orphans, and 401k administrators" which securities are investment grade and rate them based on risk, precisely because it is recognized that general investors don't have the knowledge or the skills to do this for themselves. The rating agencies had rated many of the CDOs as AAA investment grade and these were sold all over the world. The people and governments that purchased these investments had no reason to believe they posed any more risk than any other AAA rated security. You probably should do a little more investigation on this issue before you start laying blame.




ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/8/2010 11:19:41 AM)

Actually, the system works best when there is some level of regulation to keep greed in check.




domiguy -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/8/2010 11:26:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: auditguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Wow...this must be like the 14th or 15th dumbest thing I've ever read on CM. Certainly makes the top 20. Congratulations!


Well thank you, I am usually at the top of most lists.


It's good to be recognized as one of the dumber posters out here.

Congratulations. Call your mom, tell her that of all of the idiots that post out on CM you have made it to the top O' the idiot heap.

Maybe you could print out this thread so she could stick it to her fridge.




pahunkboy -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/8/2010 11:45:59 AM)

LOL-  they are only rated AAA.




auditguy -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/8/2010 11:54:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

It's good to be recognized as one of the dumber posters out here.

Congratulations. Call your mom, tell her that of all of the idiots that post out on CM you have made it to the top O' the idiot heap.

Maybe you could print out this thread so she could stick it to her fridge.


Black Jesus, is that you?  Damn I knew I was going to end up in hell.




auditguy -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/8/2010 12:02:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

Actually, the system works best when there is some level of regulation to keep greed in check.


I don't get to use Gordon Gekko quotes enough, so I thank you for this opportunity:

Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind."




pahunkboy -> RE: Goldman Sachs: Guilty of NY Felony Gambling Law? (5/8/2010 12:03:11 PM)

Gold and silver have no counter-party risk.


So that is why I stack.




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