quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Without a spiritual dimension to existence life would just be a meaningless chain of random events...

Loves, family, friends and experiences aren't meaningless just because someone doesn't have spiritual dimensions.  Their lives aren't meaningless just because they don't have some spiritual experience.  Ridiculing people who have belief doesn't rock, but neither is condecending people who don't dig a spiritual path.

the.dark.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
But if we were nothing more than an artfully arranged collection of biology and chemistry how would we feel satisfaction, love, empathy?  Are these all just chemical reations?  If so, then could we not inject people with identical chemicals to get identical response?  To me, there is something more than biology and chemistry.  I call that something more... spirit. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: catfightservice

Ill start off by asking how many others are agnostic or atheist out there? Im guessing in the fetish world there is quite a few. Myself...I think the bible is a great story, but i dont believe it. I mean who seriously believes noah built an ark to hold two of every animal? Come on!!! we couldn't even do that today. Imagine with hand tools? Part the red sea? jonah and the whale? tower of babylon? God created the heaven and earth? what about themillions of other galaxies, who made them? The bible doesnt talk about dinosaurs. Some people put so much faith in the bible, but keep this in mind. When they wrote that book they still thought the earth was flat. How many of their other beliefs can we debunk? I dont mean to offend anyone of any religion. Id just like to get the facts straight.

I find this a false dichotomy, you are stating that the only proper way to conceive of the Sacred is a belief in the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Well, I reject that assertion...

I am a spiritual person, and I reject other people's boxes that seek to define me, or anyone else for that matter

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
But if we were nothing more than an artfully arranged collection of biology and chemistry how would we feel satisfaction, love, empathy?  Are these all just chemical reations?  If so, then could we not inject people with identical chemicals to get identical response?  To me, there is something more than biology and chemistry.  I call that something more... spirit. 

But we do inject people.  They even inject themselves.  But the cost and the continued expense is something that people can not afford.  But just because we might all look the same, doesn't mean we all react the same to different substances and chemicals in our bodies.

the.dark.

quote:

ORIGINAL: catfightservice

Ill start off by asking how many others are agnostic or atheist out there? Im guessing in the fetish world there is quite a few. Myself...I think the bible is a great story, but i dont believe it. I mean who seriously believes noah built an ark to hold two of every animal? Come on!!! we couldn't even do that today. Imagine with hand tools? Part the red sea? jonah and the whale? tower of babylon? God created the heaven and earth? what about themillions of other galaxies, who made them? The bible doesnt talk about dinosaurs. Some people put so much faith in the bible, but keep this in mind. When they wrote that book they still thought the earth was flat. How many of their other beliefs can we debunk? I dont mean to offend anyone of any religion. Id just like to get the facts straight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

So THIS is why you don't discuss religion at the dinner table. Blech; can anyone pass the salt?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Are you familiar with the term pantheist?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Yes, but I don't really think it applies to me -- see "pantheism" embraces -all- gods... I don't really think that "god" in the sense of "separate intelligent entity who creates and rules" comprises the way that I see the Universe -- for me, it's more like being "fingers on the hands of the Universe".... all connected... all together... and as a cumulative entity

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Without a spiritual dimension to existence life would just be a meaningless chain of random events...

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Yes, but I don't really think it applies to me -- see "pantheism" embraces -all- gods... I don't really think that "god" in the sense of "separate intelligent entity who creates and rules" comprises the way that I see the Universe -- for me, it's more like being "fingers on the hands of the Universe".... all connected... all together... and as a cumulative entity

If you're thinking of Hinduism as a pantheism, it's polytheistic overtones might be confusing. They aren't inherent to pantheism. It isn't a worship of multiple gods, it's a position that sounds very much like what you've written above.

"Pantheism is the view that the Universe (Nature) and God are identical,[1] or that the Universe (including Nature on Earth) is the only thing deserving the deepest kind of reverence. The word derives from the Ancient Greek: πᾶν (pan) meaning "All" and θεός (theos) meaning "God" - literally "All is God". As such Pantheism promotes the idea that "God" is better understood as a way of relating to nature and the Universe as a whole - all that was, is and shall be - rather than as a transcendent, mental, personal or creator entity.[2] Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal, anthropomorphic or creator god. Although there are divergences within Pantheism, the central ideas found in almost all versions are the Cosmos as an all-encompassing unity and the "sacredness" of Nature." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Without a spiritual dimension to existence life would just be a meaningless chain of random events...

Loves, family, friends and experiences aren't meaningless just because someone doesn't have spiritual dimensions.  Their lives aren't meaningless just because they don't have some spiritual experience.  Ridiculing people who have belief doesn't rock, but neither is condecending people who don't dig a spiritual path.

the.dark.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
I really wanted to comment, momentarily, on this chain of posts -- not the particular post, but the essence of the entire chain. I think that there is a tendency, here, to confuse "spiritual" with "religious". Julia has already stated that she isn't hung up on the concepts of deity and that her posting doesn't imply a need to blindly follow some religious rhetoric -- so it sounds, at least to me, like everyone here is saying the exact same thing... namely:

"Life has meaning. We infuse meaning in things like family, love, and friends by our attention to those things, and by giving those things a place in our own essence (spirit), and we form ethical choices around our relationship to the things that we give importance to in our lives. This can happen with or without a deity or religion being involved, but having these kinds of connections are what give substance to our lives and enable us to make decisions that are sound ones for our own lives and for the progress of the things that we value."

So... why the argument?

Calla

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
I really wanted to comment, momentarily, on this chain of posts -- not the particular post, but the essence of the entire chain. I think that there is a tendency, here, to confuse "spiritual" with "religious". Julia has already stated that she isn't hung up on the concepts of deity and that her posting doesn't imply a need to blindly follow some religious rhetoric -- so it sounds, at least to me, like everyone here is saying the exact same thing... namely:

"Life has meaning. We infuse meaning in things like family, love, and friends by our attention to those things, and by giving those things a place in our own essence (spirit), and we form ethical choices around our relationship to the things that we give importance to in our lives. This can happen with or without a deity or religion being involved, but having these kinds of connections are what give substance to our lives and enable us to make decisions that are sound ones for our own lives and for the progress of the things that we value."

So... why the argument?

Calla

I don't see any confusion between religion and spiritualness.  Claiming the embodiment of ones personality and ethics is the same as spiritualness is pushing it and a little presumptuous of someone who is of non belief. Claiming that one's 'spirit' is the same as ones 'personality' would be incorrect to many people. the.dark.

quote:

Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or immaterial reality;[1] an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.”[2] Spiritual practices, including meditation, prayer and contemplation, are intended to develop an individual's inner life; such practices often lead to an experience of connectedness with a larger reality, yielding a more comprehensive self; with other individuals or the human community; with nature or the cosmos; or with the divine realm.[3] Spirituality is often experienced as a source of inspiration or orientation in life.[4] It can encompass belief in immaterial realities or experiences of the immanent or transcendent nature of the world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Geetings to the.dark

I agree that personality and spirituality are not the same.

But the definition of spirituality seems to include any inner searching or journey whose goal is to discover deep values and meanings. It is a very broad definition. I hope you do not intend to limit it only to the religious. Have I misunderstood you?

Here is the Wiki definition:

quote:

Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or immaterial reality;[1] an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.”[2] Spiritual practices, including meditation, prayer and contemplation, are intended to develop an individual's inner life; such practices often lead to an experience of connectedness with a larger reality, yielding a more comprehensive self; with other individuals or the human community; with nature or the cosmos; or with the divine realm.[3] Spirituality is often experienced as a source of inspiration or orientation in life.[4] It can encompass belief in immaterial realities or experiences of the immanent or transcendent nature of the world.

I don't see a contradiction if the journey leads to the divine or to moral humanism. It is the journey that is or can be spiritual. I wonder if we agree?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Geetings to the.dark

I agree that personality and spirituality are not the same.

But the definition of spirituality seems to include any inner searching or journey whose goal is to discover deep values and meanings. It is a very broad definition. I hope you do not intend to limit it only to the religious. Have I misunderstood you?

Here is the Wiki definition:

quote:

Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or immaterial reality;[1] an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.”[2] Spiritual practices, including meditation, prayer and contemplation, are intended to develop an individual's inner life; such practices often lead to an experience of connectedness with a larger reality, yielding a more comprehensive self; with other individuals or the human community; with nature or the cosmos; or with the divine realm.[3] Spirituality is often experienced as a source of inspiration or orientation in life.[4] It can encompass belief in immaterial realities or experiences of the immanent or transcendent nature of the world.

I don't see a contradiction if the journey leads to the divine or to moral humanism. It is the journey that is or can be spiritual. I wonder if we agree?

Hello you!
Not at all.  I do not view religion or spirituality as one in the same at all.  It's like - being a dominant.  Just because you are dominant does not mean you are a sadist.  They are two seperate things that can be interlinked if an individual dig it for themselves.  Does that make it clearer?

But I know atheists who would balk at the concept of 'spirit'.  For them (one guy I know in particular) he doesn't believe in spirit or soul.  He doesn't really define life as being on a path or a journey.  So in that sense, spirituality doesn't apply to him.
It's the concept of absolutes that I dislike because as individuals I think it's really unfair to pigeon hole people as all coming down to the same thing - spirituality.  Even in your wiki description, it still boils down to connectedness or oneness.  And for some people, life isn't all that and to live day to day is a pretty ok thing to do.

Some people aren't religious.  And out of those, some people aren't spiritual.  They are something else entirely different.

the.dark.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
We seem to be in agreement here, t.d, as I could not accept living this life without seeking connectedness. Hard for me to imagine your friend does not seek some community at least, even if he does not believe in soul. as I do not. I wonder what his influences are and how he arrived at his solitary attitude. I suppose the alternatives to seeking community are (a) day to day life without questioning or examinating or, (b) in the extreme, curled catatonically in a fetal position. I find neither very attractive.

Regards....

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz To me, ID is self-evident. But that knowledge -- which is not scientific or even rational -- is a matter of personal belief and experience. Not only can't I prove it, I don't see any need to. (I also have no right to impose my beliefs on anybody else.)

We pretty much have no disagreement except on the personal belief of ID. I do not wish to debate the relative merits of personal belief/experience vs scientific/rational. You have pretty much taken that off the table anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML But I do have a question regarding your belief in a well-ordered Universe created by an Intelligent Designer, if you will indulge me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML I wonder how you can hold that belief in the face of such a long history of natural evil where innocent children have suffered grieviously from hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and etc. Or am I wrongly presuming you know that your Designer is benevolent? …. Why do innocents suffer so much at the hands of Nature? Is the Designer careless in his design, malevolent in his intent, or just indifferent?

quote:

Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML Much appreciate the discourse.