Where does freedom of speach end and domestic terrorism begin?

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Where does freedom of speach end and domestic terrorism... - 5/11/2010 4:09:07 PM

jlf1961

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From: Somewhere Texas
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After a recent thread dealing with Hutaree militia and the FBI not willing to provide the tapes that prove the alleged plan to kill police officers I began to do a little research, and it seems to fall to how the first amendment is interpreted.

quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

Now this is from the FBI page concerning domestic terrorism:

quote:

As with all forms of extremism, preventing homegrown attacks before they are hatched is our overriding goal. It’s an especially tall order given the civil liberties we all enjoy as American citizens, including the right to free speech. Hate and anger are not crimes; neither are hard-line and poisonous ideologies. It’s only when actions by groups or individuals cross the line into threats, the actual use of force or violence, or other law-breaking activities that we can investigate. That goes for lone offenders, whose high degrees of autonomy make them difficult to stop before they strike.

http://www.fbi.gov/page2/sept09/domesticterrorism090709.html

It appears that there is a lot of leeway in how domestic terrorists can be investigated and arrested.

This brings up the question, at what point does the first amendment end and criminal conspiracy begin?

< Message edited by jlf1961 -- 5/11/2010 4:10:18 PM >

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: Where does freedom of speach end and domestic terro... - 5/11/2010 5:42:48 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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Tell you what. Start by learning to spell "speech" correctly. Then give me some reason to think you aren't bringing a hateful partisan tone of idiocy in how you decide what is ok and what isn't.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to jlf1961)

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RE: Where does freedom of speach end and domestic terro... - 5/11/2010 5:50:32 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

Sorry about the misspelling.

As for not bringing a partisan, I posed the question based on the simple fact that at some point, in anger, probably everyone has uttered the words "I am going to Kill !"

Under the FBI guideline posted on their own website, that would constitute a criminal act.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 3

RE: Where does freedom of speech end and domestic terro... - 5/11/2010 9:07:51 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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Threats are a part of speech that live in the grey area, Jlf. How serious is the threat? How seriously is it taken. It all gets pretty subjective. We draw a hard line at threatening the life of the President, and even from my perspective, I'm completely ok with that.

Criminal conspiracy is another matter. When I get together with a certain cousin, or a few other like minded people, our conversations are damn near illegal. We'll formulate the perfect alibi to commit murder, or plan to rob a bank, take down a drug dealer, or blow up a hated institution. I say damn near illegal, because there is no actual intent, and no acts are ever taken to further the plan. We are just freely expressing ourselves and having some laughs.

This Hutaree case is kind of interesting, as it develops. I have to wonder if a decision wasn't made to just disrupt a possible threat, and send a message along to a lot of the other loony groups, even if they can't get convictions on what they have.

These are challenging times for free speech. An artist giving a lecture at a Swedish university in the last couple days was attacked by a mob of muslim students because they didn't like what he was saying and had said previously. When their violence ended his presentation, thay all chanted "Allah Akbar" in celebration. It's the same thing the traitor Nadal shouted when he jumped up and started killing soldiers. How protected are those words going to be in the years ahead of us?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 4

RE: Where does freedom of speech end and domestic terro... - 5/11/2010 9:35:37 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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if its even true in the first place.

if I remember correctly didnt the fbi lose their evidence? LOL

How about the FBI plotting to blow up the WTC and then giving the dood REAL EXPLOSIVES?

whats up with that.

some pictures are serious wrong but jlf only hates tea partiers and sovereigns and forgives the GUV after writing love letters to them

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Where does freedom of speech end and domestic terro... - 5/11/2010 10:18:49 PM

thornhappy

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It's amazing that you have to drag 9/11 into every damn thread.

(in reply to Real0ne)

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RE: Where does freedom of speech end and domestic terro... - 5/11/2010 10:58:46 PM

Dubbelganger

Posts: 200
Joined: 4/9/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

It's amazing that you have to drag 9/11 into every damn thread.

Thorn, the "hide" button is your friend. Unless you are so maso that you HAVE TO read his moronic tripe.

(in reply to thornhappy)

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RE: Where does freedom of speech end and domestic terro... - 5/11/2010 10:59:00 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

Thorny, do you really expect Real not to?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to thornhappy)

Post #: 8

RE: Where does freedom of speech end and domestic terro... - 5/11/2010 10:59:37 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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hardly

you just do not know the difference between the FBI bombing in 1993 and demolitions of 2001.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to thornhappy)

Post #: 9

RE: Where does freedom of speech end and domestic terro... - 5/12/2010 8:28:32 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

HOARD GOLD.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 10

RE: Where does freedom of speech end and domestic terro... - 5/12/2010 9:05:54 AM

DCWoody

Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline

I knew of a Canadian guy, regular poster on a general purpose (mostly humour) forum. He made a comment about how somebody should kill Bush II for the good of the world, was tempted to do it himself etc......had his american assets seized by the FB, and was told, though not officially banned, never to cross the border into usa. Never actually got any charges or went to court, but he had ~20k investment in usa the FBI had taken that he didn't, and was legally advised almost certainly never will, get back.
Encouraging others to commit crimes should certainly be a crime, but that episode was one (among a great many) thing(s) that damaged the reputation of usa law enforcement in my eyes.

I just read the rest of this thread: you guys are insane. Honestly, I would not allow you sharp objects.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

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RE: Where does freedom of speech end and domestic terro... - 5/12/2010 9:29:21 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

I just read the rest of this thread: you guys are insane. Honestly, I would not allow you sharp objects.

I recommend a nice and tight little straight jacket and a muzzle, just to shut them up: it's hard to say "Nineelevenconspiracy" when all you can pronounce are vowels

.

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RE: Where does freedom of speech end and domestic terro... - 5/12/2010 9:35:51 AM

DCWoody

Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
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Hmm....'Eees aah ohheeeaheee'....nah, don't work.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 13

RE: Where does freedom of speech end and domestic terro... - 5/12/2010 2:10:49 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act
A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act ""dangerous to human life"" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping.

Seems that this is a bit broad, and added to the FBI statement, makes for a rather large loophole in civil rights.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to DCWoody)

Post #: 14

RE: Where does freedom of speech end and domestic terro... - 5/12/2010 4:15:38 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

tard bs as usual.

show me the injured party!

I call the injured party to the stand to testify!

childs play.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 15

RE: Where does freedom of speech end and domestic terro... - 5/12/2010 6:09:38 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

well administrator we seem to have a problem in that the plaintiff is absent.

(attorney stands up but I represent the plaintiff)

Is the plaintiff present?

no

Do you have a claim against me? yes or no

well no.

Do you have a signed witnessed affidavit swearing to the facts in matter by the plaintiff that I may examine?

no

Commissioner do you have a claim against me?

no

Is there anyone in this room that has a claim against me.

silence.

My business is finished here.

case dismissed

thats the beginning and the end of freedom of speech and all this retarded shit about free speech being a crime. go ahead take me to court, 10 minutes and bang down the shitter your case goes! LOL

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 16

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