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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/9/2006 8:26:30 AM   
MHOO314


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I do love your posts like this--I think that there is a "prediction" of what we all will evolve to--and that's based on three key factors, where was the universe at the time things began to shift, who at that time was best able to survive the shift, and who has continued the subtle evolution toward change--
 
My examples:
 
.
quote:

Cheetahs, for example, have evolved their remarkable ability for speed, but in doing so, have a metabolism issue that makes eating right after making a kill impossible. While they rest, hyenas and vultures move in and steal their kill. The cheetah is not capable of doing much to stop it. As gazelle numbers dwindle, and hyena numbers increase, the cheetah population is starting to decline.  Thank you Cin for this one--<smiles>


Eons ago, man was shorter in stature with longer arms--he evolved to shorter in stature with shorter arms- then he became and continues to be taller---today he is what "we classify" as physically balanced--BUT we have become weakened to deathly diseases, due to our way of life--we physically must develop that immune capability or we will be eliminated--or is it natural selection? The ozone layer peels away--we will need to develop either better means of breathing or die--so I think it is more a prediction based on the species developing against the requirements of the universe at the time.

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/9/2006 8:56:34 AM   
Rule


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Life has cravings, one of them simply being bored with boredom. Spiritual reality responds to these cravings and provides opportunity and challenge in physical reality. Species accumulate mutations and may use this genetic variety to evolve when challenged. I know of no example of devolution.
There are blind cave-fish, but their blindness is not a devolution. Shark evolution has not stopped. There are hundreds of species of sharks and when a new shark niche opens some shark will evolve to fill that niche. So yes, evolution is teleological, I think.
 
The most rapidly and interesting evolving species is ours. Evolution does not happen in a single generation, but I wonder what humanity will be like two thousand years - fifty generations - from now. 

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/9/2006 1:50:44 PM   
Lordandmaster


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That's exactly why women have them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

Because things like large female breasts in humans.....

Darned, I like this particular adaptation, mutation, whatever it is...lol.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 4/9/2006 1:51:10 PM >

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/10/2006 5:47:16 PM   
ScooterTrash


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

That's exactly why women have them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

Because things like large female breasts in humans.....

Darned, I like this particular adaptation, mutation, whatever it is...lol.




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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/13/2006 7:59:29 AM   
Amaros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Because things like large female breasts in humans, large tailfeathers in many species of birds, and so on, are not adaptations to environment.  In fact, many peculiarities like these IMPEDE a creature's chances of survival.  But the creatures survive anyway, because they have adapted to their environment well ENOUGH to survive.  That's all you need.  No teleology, no perfection.

These things arise from sexual selection, they are related to mating behaviors, rather than stress adaptations - in other words, the stressor is simply that possession of these trait makes an individual more attractive to the opposite sex, and so they tend to be selected for and promoted.

It's a very powerfull selection stressor - consider that that every breed of dog on that planet right now is decended from a single breed, and that all this diversity has occured in a mere 15K years or so primarily from sexual selection; albeit, much of it imposed, i.e. , breeding, and maybe only a handfull of random mutations.

You're correct in observing that sexually selected traits are not neccesarily well adapted survival traits, and in many case may even be detrimental - the Irish Elk's antlers, a sexually selected trait, grew so ponderous that it's thought that it led to their extinction - they simply couldn't hold ther heads up anymore.

Others, like Peacocks, manage to survive because the most extreme specmens of these sexually selected traits manage to enjoy just enough breeding success to keep the alleles going. There are probobly studies of this, if you look hard enough, but there are a number of factors involved: type and degree of local predators, environmental stability, etc.

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/13/2006 11:53:21 AM   
Chaingang


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Schrödinger's cat says, "Don't you fucking look at me!"

Ah, physics jokes on CM - who knew it could be done?

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/13/2006 12:35:28 PM   
Lordandmaster


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You don't say?  I never imagined there would be any studies of evolution.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

There are probobly studies of this, if you look hard enough

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/14/2006 7:23:06 AM   
Amaros


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I mean of Peacocks specifically.

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/14/2006 8:13:35 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Because things like large female breasts in humans, large tailfeathers in many species of birds, and so on, are not adaptations to environment.  In fact, many peculiarities like these IMPEDE a creature's chances of survival.  But the creatures survive anyway, because they have adapted to their environment well ENOUGH to survive.  That's all you need.  No teleology, no perfection.

There are flat chested women as well. Couldn't it be that evolution really doesn't care what genes help you survive, but merely that there is enough variance of genes/traits to ensure survival over the broadest range of possiblities.   More of a shotgun effect than trying to take the perfect shot everytime. I'm not an expert or anything but that would make sense to me that you'd want to have the largest number of possible traits at any given time in the population. The reasoning being that if all the viable traits are exposed in one person or another there is a greater chance that one of them will be ideally suited or more ideally suited to dramatic change than if there was a goal to replace all the traits with one superior trait. So, one persons deficit could easily turn into a advantage if catastrophe struck. So, really, evolution isn't so much about gene elimination as in expressing the largest number of traits at any given time among the population. There is a bottom limit to what genes would allow survival and those would go dormant but all the traits in theory that allowed survival in the current environment should be expressed to the largest degree possible to ensure the greatest chance of survival versus possible environment change.

Topic looked interesting, maybe I'm just talking out of my ass though. LOL

Thanks.

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/17/2006 8:30:39 AM   
Amaros


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It is true there is no up or down in evolution - I think a lot of the teleological thinking possibly comes from people who attribute some sort of mystical superiority to humans. Evolutionarily speaking, a succesful species is simply one that isn't extinct yet - a cockroach is every bit as sucessful a species as humans, moreso, if we off ourselves. We have greater cerberal complexity, and that has given us an advantage over a lot of other species whom we've driven into extinction, but it really isn't anything to brag about.

Anyway need, it doesn't quite work that way although you're on the right track in some respects - that diversity will simply tend to occur in a complex species like humans, spread over a wide geographic area, with significant geographcal barriers - that pretty much where racial diversity came in to begin with, a few localized random mutations and a lot of sexual selection among isolated populations, albeit with nough interaction to avoid outright speciation.

Sexual selection is again, the reason behind breast differences - breast size has absolutely nothing to do with breast feeding, so far as I know, beyond certain mechanical advantages perhaps, i.e.,convenience, not efficiency - a preference for large breasts, while not uncommon, is far from universal - so while a trend toward large breastedness has been selected for across cultures, there is no culture where all women are uniformly large breasted - perhaps because while sexual selection among humans can be harsh and agressive, it's fairly rare that anyne is shut out entrely, and for most of human history, enculturation and family connections have tended to outweigh appearence.

I, for one don't really get it - I could really are less how large a womans breasts are, I'm a leg man - but it is programmed in I believe, i.e., a preference for large breasts has been selected for among males to some extent - even my general ambivelence towards breast size doesn't mean I don't notice, it just gets bumped down the list.

Diversity  itself, among all species, without the complexity and diversity of human sexual selection patterns, arises primarily from niche shifting - i.e., a certain members of a species adapted to a specific niche ether through a random mutation or sexual selection, exand or shift their range to a slightly differnt niche, and their adaptation path then diverges from the parent species - this can be simply a tolerance for a different temperature range, a different type of forage, a different type of insect, or simply a different method of foraging - these were all factors in how hominids evolved from rodentlike insectivores, and humans from hominids.

There is no  overall plan to diversify,  but  the shotgun analogy still holds up - there has to arise, either through random mutation or sexual selection, some trait that makes it possible for a given genetic line to enhance it's breeding potential by shifting or expanding it's niche - that's your shotgun effect, and it'll keep going as long as there are niches yet to fill

It is interesting that sexual selection can also work against diversity, and in fact it typically does - there is some archeological evidence for a bias against six fingered humans (polydactyly) - a not uncommon random mutation that is neither partiularly beneficial nor particuarly detrimental from a purely morphological standpont - but there are no cultures where polydactyly is anymore common than any other culture - .i.e., it's fairly evident that this particular trait has been selected against across all cultures. In recent years, with less a less profoundly superstitious zeitgeist at work, polydactyly has begun to run in certain families, founding what might be called a polydactylic human varient - and given enough generations - a couple of hundred thousand perhaps - it might eventually drift into the general population after being deliberately excised for the last couple of hundred thousand generations.

Sexual selection tends to homogenize, according to current notions of physical beauty and/or other adaptive charateristics deemed desireable by mass culture, or species specific traits.

Still, the babe married to the wealthy businessman might well be raising the children of the poolman - there are a number of levels, divisions and degrees to what is or is not sexually desireable to humans, and that itself can change over time - another force adding to the shotgun effect.

Finally, should a highly variable species like humans arise - which it did - that propensity for diversity in both  morphological and psychological traits can be advantagoeous under changing conditions by countering overspecialization and homogneizing effects - the DRD4 - 7R alleles occurs in a number of variants, several of which have been identifed as being related to both ADHD, and '"novelty", or thrill seeking personality types - it's speculated that random mutations in these alleles may have been of great significance when they occured, approx. 40k y.a. - at that time individuals possessing these variations may have had significant sexual selection advantages over more "socilized" personality types - nowadays, we medicate them.

Actually, it would be interesting to see if these DRD4-7R varients are more common among BDSM afficionados - they almost certainy are among other extreme sports enthusiasts.

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=117557


< Message edited by Amaros -- 4/17/2006 8:51:27 AM >

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/17/2006 9:07:16 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

Actually, it would be interesting to see if these DRD4-7R varients are more common among BDSM afficionados

You mean there might be a medical reason? Dang, and all this time I was happy just being a perv....wanders off singing to himself..."sitting on a park bench, eyeing little girls with bad intent"

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/17/2006 10:01:02 AM   
Amaros


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Yep, without us perverts they'd still be sitting around the campfire dying from emphysema. 

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/17/2006 10:35:28 AM   
BrutalAntipathy


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I believe that Jared Diamond's The Third Chimpanze and Dawkins'  The Selfish Gene both touched briefly on these subjects.
 
As for human superiority, I find it humbling that trilobites existed for about three hundred million years, while h. sapien has been here for less than a million. Come to think of it, cockroaches have been around for several hundred million years as well. Something to consider while we ponder our role and place in the universe, I think.

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/17/2006 7:52:34 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros
Others, like Peacocks, manage to survive because the most extreme specmens of these sexually selected traits manage to enjoy just enough breeding success to keep the alleles going. There are probobly studies of this, if you look hard enough, but there are a number of factors involved: type and degree of local predators, environmental stability, etc.


Conspicuous - and costly - traits as peacock feathers and the boweries of bowery birds evolved because to survive predation such conspicuous male birds must be healthier and stronger and smarter than inconspicuous well camouflaged male birds. Female birds that exert sexual selection and choose such conspicuous male partners therefore acquire and confer evolutionary advantageous traits upon their progeny.

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/17/2006 8:13:37 PM   
Lordandmaster


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That's a common answer, but I don't see it as an explanation, because the females who pass on these allegedly advantageous traits also pass on the very burdensome traits we're talking about.  Sounds like a stalemate.

The only explanation that, honestly, makes any sense to me is this: like everything else, these burdensome traits began with one or more mutations, were cemented in the species through breeding (remember, the children of a peacock with huge tailfeathers not only tend to HAVE large tailfeathers but also tend to DESIRE them in their own mates), and never proved costly enough to be rooted out.  In other words, there's no reason for them at all.  They just happened.  Why do human males prefer human females with breasts that are much larger than what is needed merely for suckling young?  Because they just do.

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/18/2006 1:19:20 AM   
Dustyn


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Physical characteristics in human beings are generally a social concept of what is attractive, as opposed to the natural selection process of spreading seed far and wide to reproduce as often as possible to ensure the continuation of the species.  The comments over the large vs small breasts concept isn't really a good indicator since there are too many recessive genes that can become dominant with specific chemical triggers at specific times.  Or at least that is how I grasp it.  I'm not a biochemist or a geneticist or anything along those lines.  Just have a good friend that was a grad student in bioengineering and we talked from time to time about evolution and things like that and how it would impact her work.  Basically she was just venting and I was scrambling to try and keep up. LOL

And yes, the weak rarely live long in the wild, simply because it's easier to chase down a lame gazelle than it is one that is full of vim and vigor.

And why the hell am I discussing evolution.  I live in Kansas and we outlawed it yet again. LOL


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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/18/2006 6:26:22 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


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When I think of humans evolving, I don't envision us becoming anything else physically; I do however envision an overal increase/improvement intellectual function (I know some of you Mo fos are already there, lol), an integration of our thoughts and feelings, better communications between our left and right cerebral hemispheres, a better balance between our base/evolved instincts, and an integration of our feminine and masculine energies to become more balanced, and better able to survive amongst each other.    M

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/18/2006 8:09:35 AM   
ScooterTrash


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dustyn

And why the hell am I discussing evolution.  I live in Kansas and we outlawed it yet again. LOL


I saw this and just had to do some checking. There is quite a bit of information available on this and yes, it appears your (Kansas) State School Board did vote either against teaching it or (if I understood it right) they had to provide "doubt" information about the theory if they did teach it. And here I thought this controversy was over in the late 60s.

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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/19/2006 12:01:06 PM   
Dustyn


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Basically, the KBOE removed some of the impetus to teach only evolution and opened the door for just about anything and everything else that could even aguely be construed as being a possible answer as to why and how we got here.

THen again, I've always thought that religious nuts belong on religious sundays. ;)


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RE: Evolution Thoughts - 4/19/2006 9:36:05 PM   
RiotGirl


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quote:

WHY have humans evolved to where we are now? What about this makes us MORE suited to survive, when ultimately it seems like we may destroy us? Do luddites have the right idea?


Completely agree with you LA on evolution.  Humans have evolved to where we are now simply because we have.  Survival, procreation.  Why are black ppl black?  Actually i think its from the climate and being closer to the sun.  The tan just stuck.  Ever noticed that people in colder climates like Sweden have lighter skin and the ppl in the south have darker skin?  i think its all revalent to how close to the sun you are.

We've evolved to survive.  Himself hasnt even a clue why we evolved past other species.  As at one time we barely had language skills.  (ever seen Clan of the Cave Bear?)  Amongst documentaries that are possible to see.  Humans at one time barely had language skills.  Language was a series of grunts and what not.  Much like some of the animals today.  We were also not "top" of the food chain either.  We were also food.  As to why we evolved past other species you might have me stumped, but i've a few ideas.

Larger brain capacity?  Though i am uncertian if thats changed or not..

Because we never worked purely on instinct as other animals tend to do? We've always had some semblence of intelligence.  Actually, you know what, i think i learned the answer to your question once.  Because we have the ability to "create"  We learned to "create" fire and "tools"  And it went from there.  To better tools, to weapons, to housing.  Just a thought.

Dunno who luddites are and i'm not in the mood to go figure it out.  = )  Yes we will eventually destroy ourselves or at best destroy civilization.  Or at best find another planet to destroy.  But for as murdering ourselves and destroying ourselves that way, we arent the only species that does it.  Why do tarantulas kill the mate after they procreate?  (i think i've the right spider)  Some species out there that are cannibals.  Why?  We just have an evolved way to kill each other.  We have evolved beyond.  Cats fight, dogs fight.  i'm sure if they could figure out a way to kill their opponent easier they would. 

Maybe we have just evolved too much for our own good.  i have personally always believed that.

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