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Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 10:07:48 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Over the past 5 or 6 years I have noticed the amount of swingers we have within our groups. Just curious as to how many there are actually out there? These people seem to be part time Lifestyler's.
Yet, at the same time if you go over to a swingers house they will have a more equipped dungeon than anyone. Is this because they have swinging parties and use it more often?

Doing research last week for an upcoming party for my group. The host of this coming month's party is a swinger. He has a wife. He also has a submissive. They do not consider themselves poly. The sub has been in the picture for 3 years now so it appears it is working.

Why is it working? Is it because the whole swinger outlook is there?
As we were going on trying to implement thrie rules with my rules it became quite the challenge. Ever try and tell a swinger there is no penetration allowed at my BDSM party? So there is no way any of us will go to jail? Or try to tell them there is no alcohol allowed either.

These are just a few of my jumbled thoughts.
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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 10:17:25 AM   
lovingmaster45


Posts: 261
Joined: 9/16/2004
Status: offline 		Gloria,
That is exactly why we ( my wife, subs and sluts) left "formal" BDSM groups years ago. What is wrong with sex? Organized bdsm is to my style of bdsm as high school sex education is to sex. I do not live in a sterile world and all the hand-wringers in BDSM groups had better get used to the fact that if the cops target you, it matters not whether there is penetration or not. I am a retired criminology professsor and could bore you with case after case which supports my contention. We "cover" ourselves well by having cops, lawyers, and judges in our group. I often think formal BDSM is created so subbies with no life an Doms on a power trip will have a social life.

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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 10:51:23 AM   
sweetpleaser


Posts: 689
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Florida
Status: offline 		Hi Gloria:

Sorry for the dumb question here but if there is a swinger, his wife and his sub involved how can they not be poly? I've heard that before and I don't get it. You have far more experience in BDSM than I do so maybe you can help me figure it out.

Thanks!!
ann

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It's not the men in my life that count, it's the life in my men.--Mae West

(in reply to sub4hire)
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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 11:29:28 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Sorry for the dumb question here but if there is a swinger, his wife and his sub involved how can they not be poly? I've heard that before and I don't get it. You have far more experience in BDSM than I do so maybe you can help me figure it out.


Ann,
I don't know how to answer your question. That is one of my questions as well. However last Saturday night I was told they are not poly.
Another BDSM/swinger couple we know don't consider themselves poly either. Perhaps in their case though they are not poly because they have multiple partners.

I'm with you though...this particular 3 some seems poly to me. I don't understand it either.

(in reply to sweetpleaser)
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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 12:30:41 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline 		I have some very good friends that are swingers and BDSM. I am not into the swinging scene at all, and truthfully don't know much about it at. In conversation we have discussed the differences between the two lifestyle choices, and there seem to be quite a few, with sex and substance use/abuse during scene/play being up there in the top ten.

Regarding the Poly issue, um, not all poly relationships are sexually intimate, although they may have the potential to be. From the outside looking in, seeing a relationship where there is a couple, with a submissive, and they are involved with another couple (sexually intimate) on a regular basis...hmmm, they aren't monogamous, so what do they think they are, if not Poly? Occasionally monogamous swinging BDSM couple with a submissive? *shrug*



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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 1:14:48 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

In conversation we have discussed the differences between the two lifestyle choices, and there seem to be quite a few, with sex and substance use/abuse during scene/play being up there in the top ten.

Regarding the Poly issue, um, not all poly relationships are sexually intimate, although they may have the potential to be. From the outside looking in, seeing a relationship where there is a couple, with a submissive, and they are involved with another couple (sexually intimate) on a regular basis...hmmm, they aren't monogamous, so what do they think they are, if not Poly? Occasionally monogamous swinging BDSM couple with a submissive? *shrug*


I know what you mean by the substance abuse thing. We are essentially fighting over that one. I don't like to put my groups name on something I don't consider safe. Yet, at the same time many members of my group want this party to happen. Not sure if they are going to side with me or not on the alcohol issue. After all in the end it is their house, their rules.
Perhaps I will just bill it as a party. Not a Paddlers party.

I did not realize there were poly relationships out there that were not sexual. In my mind that has always been my own defining factor it was poly. I know the sub told us on Saturday that she and the wife of the man do not have sex. The wife is bi but she isn't.

Like, I said. lots to learn. So many questions so few answers.

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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 1:53:37 PM   
sweetpleaser


Posts: 689
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Florida
Status: offline 		Okay, again I want to understand. Does the man have sex with the wife AND the sub? If that is the case, isn't that considered poly even though the wife doesn't have sex with the sub? I also heard that not all players have sex so maybe that is what they mean by not being poly?!!

Thanks for your patience.
ann

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It's not the men in my life that count, it's the life in my men.--Mae West

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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 2:18:47 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Does the man have sex with the wife AND the sub? If that is the case, isn't that considered poly even though the wife doesn't have sex with the sub? I also heard that not all players have sex so maybe that is what they mean by not being poly?!!


Yes he has sex with both but not at the same time. The wife is actually a FemDom. She has multiple slaves. Plus multiple sex partners. They all have sex with everyone except one another.
Hope that makes sense, because I'm confused myself..hehe

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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 2:27:08 PM   
sweetpleaser


Posts: 689
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Florida
Status: offline 		To me it means they are poly; they are not monogamous. To each his own, I was just confused on how they can call themselves "not poly". I actually understand what "closed poly" means--believe it or not. Going back to your original post before I took it on a tangent... I don't see why they can't be swingers AND be in the lifestyle. I imagine they are not in a 24/7 dynamic. You should be able to put any rules you want into your party; you are just trying to be careful. I would respect that So, when's the party?

Take care,
ann

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It's not the men in my life that count, it's the life in my men.--Mae West

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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 2:49:29 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

I would respect that So, when's the party?


Ok, so what is closed poly? I'm a poly neophyte. Every poly threesome I have ever known first hand is no more.

They are swingers. They have a very well equipped dungeon but they will tell you they are also not lifestyle. Actually, from the swingers I know. Most are interested in the lifestyle. Some even attend parties. None will tell you it is their passion. If with swingers the lifestyle hardly ever comes up. Don't know about the masses though. I only know a few swingers. Well several but as a whole not many at all.

The party is next month after our munch if we can work out the details. My worst fear is someone get hurt or their be some non consentual act and my groups name be drug through the mud. Especially when I'd like to put our safety on the party. He doesn't even want a DM.

So it may end up being a gathering at a persons house after the munch. Not a Paddlers party. Yep, I know I'm picky but that's me.

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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 3:27:44 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Gloria,
beth and I started to attend swingers functions about a year ago. We are now semi-regulars at one LA Swingers club. Why? They were a LOT more fun! Their parties have dancing, music, adult beverages, and no inhibitions about being naked and having sex. Unless at someone's home, these practices are harder to come by at BDSM functions. It's one of the reasons I posted the question, "BDSM with or without sex" in the forum. Swingers are great people. We even went to a convention of swingers in Vegas and had a wild and crazy 3 days.

Now beth and I are what the swingers call "soft swingers". Meaning that we do not have intercourse with others. We touch, and all the other 'fun' things but have not participated in a "hard swing". It is a very erotic and sensual experience to make love with your partner in a room full of other naked couples in various positions and combinations.

There is a particular Swingers Club in LA that has become the favorite club for us. On any given weekend 75-150 couples are there. You must be a man/woman couple to attend, but you can bring or be a single female. (More single male prejudice!) It has a small 'dungeon' not well equipped. Normally this is the least used room. Often when we go up there carrying our bag of toys a few curious couples follow. And being the exhibitionists that we are, beth and I enjoy being on display when we play in that room. Swingers aren't too familiar with scene protocol, but knowing that, we deal with intrusions as then come up. We have had many couples wanting to learn and and join in with the BDSM activities. We enjoy showing them our toys, and explaining and/or demonstrating the sensations the toys create. I've always got a pocketful of clothespins handy because many want to try them out. My favorite memory is one woman putting a pair on her nipples, and then afraid to take them off, because beth told her they hurt more when taken off. An hour later, they were still on!

I've yet to attend a house party with a self identified swinger who had a great well equipped dungeon. Your experience may be unique. But I think the openness of swingers is something that all of us in the BDSM lifestyle can learn. Another thing is you can't be an 'on-line' only swinger!

We have taken a few of our BDSM club friends over to the swingers club and they agree. You can still play as you want, but you don't have to worry if you want to consummate the act after your scene. There is no more pressure there then at a BDSM club. "No thanks", means no. In fact, you don't have to do anything at all. It's a fully functioning disco complete with food & drink. You can sit around and chat with others, among yourselves, and just watch all the activities around you. I'd recommend if you have the opportunity, try it.

Merc & beth

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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 3:53:32 PM   
sweetpleaser


Posts: 689
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Florida
Status: offline 		Hopefully I won't embarrass myself by being wrong but, a closed poly is a small group (maybe Master, wife, slave, sub, etc..) who are together who do not play with others outside the group. Thanks for helping me get a better understanding.

Sincerely,
ann

< Message edited by sweetpleaser -- 9/16/2004 5:01:13 PM >

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It's not the men in my life that count, it's the life in my men.--Mae West

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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 5:05:35 PM   
smilezz


Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetpleaser

To me it means they are poly; they are not monogamous. To each his own, I was just confused on how they can call themselves "not poly".



There are many definitions of being Poly..Non-Monogamous..Swinging....it depends on the people involved. Most Poly households that i have seen are a very involved group that either co-habitate within the same house, or outside...but are still very active within the so called 'Family'. These groups of people have loving relationships with each other...sometimes it does not even include sex with each or all. I live 24/7 with Thorns...i am strictly monogamous to Him, i am not Poly.....He considers Himself to be Poly and plays with others. The negotiation and communication between us is what makes Us work.

There are alot of relationships out there that play with other people...it may or may not be considered Poly. There are terms for everything nowadays. What makes any of this of any importance is the openess of communication first. I could go on and on about the list of things....it's up to each relationship to define what they do.

Just my ten cents...

~smilezz~

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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 6:09:22 PM   
SentForu


Posts: 303
Joined: 3/23/2004
From: Middle Tennessee
Status: offline 		I have to agree with you on this. I have been involved in a swingers club for about a year now. They are lots of fun to be around. It's a lot like being at a regular dance club, except you feel free to be who you want. The people involved, are very open minded. Now, I don't play everytime I'm there either. It's extremely sensual. I've never seen drug abuse associated though. I'm sure there is, but there is in anything now.

This brings me to a question. What exactly is the differences between BDSM groups and swingers? Excuse my lack of knowledge, but I've never been to a BDSM group. Sounds to me that getting something together with the two, would be great!!!!! I don't mean anything disrespectful here, but I have been told that BDSM groups are dry and boring. Just think, if you could have a mix there. The BDSM and fun loving swingers.

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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/16/2004 8:20:51 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What exactly is the differences between BDSM groups and swingers? Excuse my lack of knowledge, but I've never been to a BDSM group. Sounds to me that getting something together with the two, would be great!!!!! I don't mean anything disrespectful here, but I have been told that BDSM groups are dry and boring


I can only speak from my experience. Which is limited when it comes to swing groups.
From what I understand at a swing party it is pretty much anything goes.

Now, when I throw a party...considering it is a BDSM party. I do not allow alcohol or any mind numbing substance. I don't want someone hurt and not even realizing they are hurt. What two consenting adults do in their own home is their issue. While at my party it is my issue. Aside from the fact, if the cops showed up. I do believe it could be considered rape if you were having sex while beating someone. Doesn't matter what you claim. It is in their eyes not yours.
So, no sex at my parties either. No penetration of any kind. We can have music and such but nothing too loud that it can bring the cops. No, non consnetual behavior.
While talking to this couple. They do not use any type of DM's. We have to. To protect ourselves.
So, basically at one of my BDSM parties you come level headed..at least as level headed as you normally would be. You leave the same way.
No money passes hands. Although from what they told me that is about the only thing we both do the same.

I can see why some would say they are dry. If a person is dry as a human being. Then of course if you cannot alter who you are you're going to be dry period.
For me parties are fun as long as there is more than spanking going on.

Then again, I don't drink or do drugs. So perhaps that is the reason why I feel this way.

(in reply to SentForu)
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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/17/2004 11:12:11 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Myra,
There is a practical reason for the different dynamic in a swingers club versus a BDSM club. beth and I attend them both depending on my mood, but since we have moved into a bigger place providing us more privacy and space to have our own home dungeon we tend to go more to the swingers club.

And that leads to the reason. A major draw for people going to BDSM clubs is the equipment. Few homes have the room or privacy for a St. Andrew's Cross, leather spanking bench, cage, and other furniture that is common at the BDSM clubs. Our favorite BDSM club in LA (Sex permitted btw) has over 40 different 'play stations' with all kinds of neat equipment/furniture; ranging from an iron bed, cages, pillory, doctor's exam table, and a 12 foot chain web. Although they would look great at our place, I'd have a hard time disguising them as beach house furniture. Many of the couples who go to these 'parties' aren't there to party - just to use the equipment. I've seen many couples come to a club, use the equipment for some great erotic scene, and then pack up and leave by 11:00 to get home for the babysitter. Even the scene music tends to be subdued in the style of an Anne Rice novel. Everyone, and rightly so, is so attuned to protocol and worrying about interfering with a 'sub-space' and 'Dom-space'. Interaction is limited at most of the parties which is why most contacts and friendships are cultivated at Munches and/or other social events. Another comment heard frequently is that BDSM clubs have more cliques. I would agree with this too, but only because of the reasons previously stated.

At a swingers club, the equipment you are coming to play with is, by definition, each other! If you are there you are social or why be there? You are there to party! That makes for a completely different dynamic.

I don't think you'll see more swingers at BDSM gatherings, but I am noticing a more crowded dungeon room at the swingers club.

quote:

I've never seen drug abuse associated though.


I don't think it's wise for drugs to be in either environment, and that's the one hard rule that is common to both places. The swingers club has an open bar and our preferred BDSM club allows BYOB. Of course it doesn't stop those who do there own thing before hand, or sneaking out.

Merc & beth

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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/17/2004 4:03:19 PM   
SentForu


Posts: 303
Joined: 3/23/2004
From: Middle Tennessee
Status: offline
quote:

I don't think you'll see more swingers at BDSM gatherings, but I am noticing a more crowded dungeon room at the swingers club.


Definately. That's what I've noticed as well. Actually, the only (even remote) experience I've had with BDSM was at this swingers club. In the dungeon, at that.

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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/18/2004 3:59:42 AM   
lovingmaster45


Posts: 261
Joined: 9/16/2004
Status: offline 		It is 6Am and I am up getting ready to open my office; yes I do have to work on Saturdays. My wife, Head Bitch Barbie is asleep in our bedroom, Slut #18 is here in the computer room lying on the couch waiting for me to finiah my coffee so she can give me a good start on my day. Greg just drove up from Hilton Head with his new girl Anna. Barb and I have a very long relationship with Greg; his ex- wife Ramona was one of my former partners and Greg had a short affair with slut #18 2 yrs ago. We will all be joined this evening by a young sub I am training and her new boyfriend/submissive..clyde. They are bringing her new gf Kelly with them so she can see some "kinky stuff"; she is 19. We will also be entertaining the ONLY couple Barbie and I swing with, Charles and Linda to our island for the weekend. I do not consider us poly in the sense that we do not all have an emotional tie to everyone else outside of good friendship.

As to the drinking; I drink, but have not been drunk since xmas of 69. Barb drinks like a fish. Greg is a teetotaler slut #18 usually has too much cock in her mouth to take many drinks. Anna likes pot. Charles and Linda are both just social drinkers. Clyde drinks a few beers and both Kelly and nico do not drink.

I see the use of DM as totally unnecessary at parties where people know each other; but am a DM at Black Rose wher a lot of people who have never played with each other do play and thazt situation calls for DMs.

I stay totally away from the kinds of BDSM parties some have described here because I do find the BORING.

I like this discussion board and all the opinions of both experienced players and the new comers.

My advice; find what you are comfortable with and ignore the criticisms.

Master Jerry; a title earned, not claimed.

(in reply to SentForu)
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RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/18/2004 12:57:25 PM   
WayHome


Posts: 237
Joined: 8/4/2004
Status: offline 		What is "poly". Gloria's confusion is quite understandable.

I think that when the couple is question says they are "not poly" what they mean is that they do not engage in the lifestyle refered to as "polyamory" by "poly people". Just because you have spanked or been spanked or used handcuffs in the bedroom doesn't mean you are in the BDSM scene or lifestyle. Likewise, just because you are not momogamous does not mean you are in the poly scene or lifestyle.

This is confusing because if you are not part of that polyamory subculture, then you probably use "poly" just as a shorthand for "polygamy" or related term and not in the special way of being a part of a lifestyle with it's own culture and customs, just as we (BDSM) have our own culture(s) and customs.

There are online places where poly's interact but it's not as extensive as online BDSM scene because, as mentioned, poly doesn't really happen online.

My own experience with "the poly scene" is very limited, but we are essentially "poly people" and have plenty of poly friends. We also know some swingers and each are very specific in saying they are not the same as the other.

Swinging is about demystifying sex and sensation and then exploring and enjoying it as much as you can without any baggage. That means swingers generally don't share love with others outside a couple (in some cases that is taboo) but they share sex and physical pleasure.

Poly is about loving more than one person. Sex is not the central issue, love is. Just as we have lots of terms for specific types of relationships within our scene, poly people have their own terms like "open triangle", "closed triangle", "quadrangle", etc. Poly people are sometimes quite permiscuous, but not always.

A married poly man might write a love poem to another female and ask his wife to read it and offer suggestions or proof-reading. Swingers would never do such a thing (unless they also considered themselves poly).

A swinger couple might go on a cruise and meet another couple and trade spouses for a few hours but not exchange phone numbers or basic biographical data. Poly people would never do such a thing (unless they were also swingers).

Hope that helps. For those curious, there are communities online. If you do a search, the words "poly", "polyamory", and "triangle" are good search terms.

I suspect the swinger in question has enough experience with the poly scene to use the term "poly" in their limited way rather than your more traditional definition and has enough experience to say that is not who he is. Likewise, though he has a dungeon, he has enough experience with the BDSM scene to know that really isn't him either.

JMO, YMMV, etc...

Leto

(in reply to lovingmaster45)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Swingers and the Scene - 9/18/2004 1:40:17 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline
quote:

Poly is about loving more than one person. Sex is not the central issue, love is. Just as we have lots of terms for specific types of relationships within our scene, poly people have their own terms like "open triangle", "closed triangle", "quadrangle", etc. Poly people are sometimes quite permiscuous, but not always.


I think you may have been looking for "Triad" there. A good site for those who have questions about polyamory is Polyamory Information .

This was a good post, Leto.

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to WayHome)
Profile   Post #: 20
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