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RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 8:26:18 AM   
Louve00


Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		We have a two party system for the most part.  You either conform to one or the other, or exclude yourself entirely.  Is that your take on it?  And do you also think an election should only be for repubs or dems, since thats the way primaries are set up.  And do you think that represents all the people?  Or do you think just the dems and repubs count?

**Editted to add...I am just trying to see where your take is on this.  Don't assume my questions are attacks or reprimands for what you are saying.  I just want to understand what you mean.

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 5/14/2010 8:28:07 AM >

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For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to flcouple2009)
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RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 8:30:26 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

We have a two party system for the most part.  You either conform to one or the other, or exclude yourself entirely.  Is that your take on it?  And do you also think an election should only be for repubs or dems, since thats the way primaries are set up.  And do you think that represents all the people?  Or do you think just the dems and repubs count?


Independents are a huge voting block that has pretty much pressured politicians to swing to the "middle". Politicians are constantly polling to see where the heads of indes are. I disagree, I would say independents are increasingly putting pressure on politicians that use to just pander to their base. Very few can win elections like that anymore.

If you are talking about holding public office, well indes aren't doing that very much, yet     


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Louve00)
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RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 8:37:12 AM   
Louve00


Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		We have a party system.  Why should anyone outside of either party decide who should win their primary?  If your so interested in the party candidate then register.  Don't complain because you made the choice to leave yourself out. 

You have whatever voice you wish in the general election.
 
Maybe I should have quoted who I was responding to.  My questions were in response to the response flcouple made to me.  Sorry for any confusion, Julia  
 

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 8:38:19 AM   
cuckoldmepls


Posts: 855
Joined: 11/29/2007
Status: offline 		As a  registered Independent myself, I'm fed up with both parties, I can honestly say that most independents are not liberals. Most independents are moderates who still believe in the basic social programs such as social security, and food stamps, but also believe in fiscally conservative government. That means not spending more than you take in, and not deceiving Americans by passing a whole slew of backdoor taxes that are eventually passed on to the consumer. We also believe in secure borders. Nader, and Gonzales are about as liberal as you can get, and disgraced the Independent cause.

We already tried 3rd parties with Ross Perot, and all it did was divide up the republican vote, and allow Bill Clinton to win the election. Then Clinton passes NAFTA, China, and the language assistance act, and look at where we are today. Good paying manufacturing jobs are gone forever according to McCain, and you have to learn a foreign language in order to get the jobs that are left. Although I am a member of the Independent party, I would never vote for a 3rd party candidate unless the polls indicated a large margin of victory for the 3rd party candidate. It's just too risky to allow a liberal to win.

This is interesting though. One of the main differences I've noticed about Liberals and Conservatives, is that a liberal only cares about the one issue that concerns them. For example, if gay marriage is their issue, they could care less about their views on social security. They will never not vote for a democrat if they don't agree with them on other issues.

However, conservatives will not only not vote for their candidate if any issue disagrees with them, they will actually not vote at all out of protest if the wrong person gets nominated. For example, Ron Paul was Constitutionally the most ideal candidate, but his stance on social security destroyed his chances. By the way, the reason McCain got nominated and lost the election was because half the republican party knew he was an open borders nutt, and refused to vote for him. Unfortunately, he still had enough brain washed senior citizens left to win the nomination, who believed his story that amnesty is the only answer. Another amnesty will not work. The first one resulted in another 10 to 15 million Illegal aliens. Another one would be even more disastrous. 10 years from now they will also be demanding another amnesty. It will never end unless we end it now.


(in reply to flcouple2009)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 8:43:15 AM   
flcouple2009


Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
Status: offline 		You can't exclude yourself from either party but still insist you should have a hand in who they choose to represent the party in the election.

You have your voice in the election.  You made the decision to not have one in the primary.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 11:27:02 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Its is just my opinion that most Independents are simply too lazy to get themselves involved in the process and wait to see which way the wind is blowing before deciding. The party system, while not perfect, is the best that we have. Each party comes together to put forward their plan on how the country should be run. A platform. Everyone that is in the party agrees with or accepts what that platform stands for and as such the party can move forward to apply those ideas to the country.

I realize we don't do that a lot now but we should. The party should decide the way forward and move in unison to get that accomplished.

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RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 11:32:36 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

You can't exclude yourself from either party but still insist you should have a hand in who they choose to represent the party in the election.

You have your voice in the election.  You made the decision to not have one in the primary.



Actually, this depends on the state you live in. Some states have open primaries, some do not. They are thinking of making California an open primary state.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to flcouple2009)
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RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 11:34:08 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Its is just my opinion that most Independents are simply too lazy to get themselves involved in the process and wait to see which way the wind is blowing before deciding. The party system, while not perfect, is the best that we have. Each party comes together to put forward their plan on how the country should be run. A platform. Everyone that is in the party agrees with or accepts what that platform stands for and as such the party can move forward to apply those ideas to the country.

I realize we don't do that a lot now but we should. The party should decide the way forward and move in unison to get that accomplished.


There are an increasing number of people that are pissed off at both parties, and in my mind that is a valid emotion considering that they represent corporations and not americans


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 11:37:19 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Then either start your own party or be quiet. If you aren't going to be involved how are you ever going to change anything or find someone that will?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 11:41:45 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Then either start your own party or be quiet. If you aren't going to be involved how are you ever going to change anything or find someone that will?


So you are saying that people shouldn't be free to express their political views the way they like? Should they be restricted by a two party system? My political views run toward social anarchism, there is no room for me at the table in our political system.... I registered green to make a statement for a third party. I am a politically active person on many fronts, just not the two party system way...

We all have our own way of making an impact, and I refuse to have someone tell me what my way should be... you have yours, I respect that, but you ain't telling me I should support the lesser of two evils, because that is still just supporting evil in my mind.,

I voted for Obama in the last election, with almost every decision he makes he is making it increasingly unlikely I will vote for him a second time....



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 11:46:56 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		No, what I am saying is exactly what you are doing. You are active enough to register green and have your voice heard. Green made an effort to get behind obama ....just as you did. If they are the lesser of two evils then go out and find a good girl and run her in an election. What I am saying is that you aren't defined by the two parties. But stepping away from them and not trying to have a voice and then complaining that you don't have that said voice.....doesn't make sense to me.

I applaud anyone that gets involved and wants to have an effect on the system and country. Communication and debate is the key....

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 11:49:30 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

(
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

No, what I am saying is exactly what you are doing. You are active enough to register green and have your voice heard. Green made an effort to get behind obama ....just as you did. If they are the lesser of two evils then go out and find a good girl and run her in an election. What I am saying is that you aren't defined by the two parties. But stepping away from them and not trying to have a voice and then complaining that you don't have that said voice.....doesn't make sense to me.

I applaud anyone that gets involved and wants to have an effect on the system and country. Communication and debate is the key....


I am increasingly unlikely to get involved in the election process in this country... I do not see it as the place where "change" comes from

There are other places to change things...


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 11:53:50 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		And where would you go to change things outside of the election process?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 11:58:17 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		Bob Barr led the prosecution of Bill Clinton's blow job, just how is he enlightened or progressive again?

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 12:04:34 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

And where would you go to change things outside of the election process?


The law


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/14/2010 6:10:16 PM   
alwayssummer


Posts: 89
Joined: 9/13/2008
Status: offline 		I've always been an independent, but registered as a Dem, because when the chips are down, rarely want a Repug to win.  After the shock of the Blue Dog Dems obstructing true health reform and now watching the  bankster Dems water down  financial reform, I've pretty much settled on MoveOn.org and Firedoglake as my political representation.  They actually send emails with a button to push to petition the President, my senator or congressperson on important issues.    I voted, campaigned for & contributed to Obama but probably will not again, unless the Repug candidate is unimaginably horrible (i.e. Palin, McConnell etc .... yeah, so probably will be) MoveOn, Firedog, RobertGreenwald and Howard Dean's organizations  best voice my progressive political opinions, so I use their petitions to express my views.

The thing that interests me right now are the primaries.  It is possible right now to support an alternative to these Blue Dog faux Dems/banksters/corpocrats.  I first contributed to Halter against Lincoln because she was such a insurance shill during the healthcare vote.  I'm contributing again to Halter tonight to keep Lincoln's derivates legislation in play after Tuesday. She introduced this bill only to win her primary and Dodd Dems are keeping it in the bill until she wins her primary. ( If she has to go into a runoff with Halter, the Dems might have to keep it in the bill intact if they final vote before they recess) 

I'm also sending money to help Marcy Winogrand win her Ca primary against the Blue Dog Dem/pro war(s) incumbent. Winogrand represents   the "jobs not wars, medicare for all,green economy, social and economic justice for all" wing of the Democratic party. So I am "voting" for her via  my small donations to her.  And I'll keep using the petition powers of Firedoglake, MoveOn. Greenwald  & Dean's networks to feel like I'm making my voice heard on these core progressive Democratic issues.

I guess another way to do it would be to contribute to all the Teabag Repugs so that the Dems will win their elections.  But I'd first like to help some progressive Democrats win their primaries against these DIMOs/Blue Dogs/misnamed "moderate" Dems.








(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/15/2010 2:08:27 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		This is a slightly confusing topic, because there are many independent voters who do not register with the Independent party. I consider myself to be a moderate centrist with libertarian leanings. I register for whichever party's primary I care about more - sometimes, to vote for the candidate I support, sometimes to vote against a candidate I oppose. In the general election, I vote office-by-office for whichever candidate I feel is best suited for the job, regardless of their party affiliation. If I get around to it, I sometimes register Libertarian in the general election, but I feel it would be pointless to do that for the primaries.

(in reply to alwayssummer)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Republican, or Democrat? Why not Independent? - 5/15/2010 3:58:23 PM   
tfstudio1972


Posts: 1
Joined: 5/15/2010
Status: offline 		Right now the Dem/Repub are just different shades of the same color. In my opinion, both are sinking ships. We need more than political reform; we need a viable 3rd Party.

(in reply to flcouple2009)
Profile   Post #: 38
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