Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (Full Version)

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Bobanna -> Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/21/2010 11:14:26 PM)

Knowing very little about masochists, (and i've looked and looked for answers to these questions on google)  Are masochists born wanting to have pain/humiliation placed upon them and have/feel positive results from it, or are they made that way throughout the developing years and if so, by what?  What does it take for somone to react positively and seek out something that most people are wired to avoid at all costs?
Not knowing the answer, (I was told by a psychiatrist it is a result of abuse of some sort)  wouldn't the masochist come into a relationship with a boatload of problems that the pleasurable/sex/pain part of it wouldn't even start to cover? 
I also have a question concerning what a Sadist said to me once, that true sadists are not looking for
masochists, because when he/she  inflicts pain, he/she doesn't want the person on the receiving end to feel pleasure, the Sadist wants them to feel negative pain and discomfort from it, and for the receiving end  to show it - not fake it.  Thats where he/she(the Sadist) get their sexual joy from.  If this being the case, who would want or stick around someone that is inflicting unbareable pain to them when they are obviously not getting off on it?  How would a relationship survive when everytime it's "play time" the receiving end is dreading it?  I'm confused.  Please note:  I'm not looking for dictionary definition for the terms Sadist and masochist, when in answering this question, but more along the lines of what is taken as the general basic understanding of sadism and masochism it being sadist = giving pain/humiliation and masochist = recieving pain/humiliation.   Thanks ~ Bo.



myotherself -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 12:22:33 AM)

I'm a masochist, but didn't realise it until I was in my late 30s.

Never ever liked pain, only figured out the sexual connection for me between sadistic play and sexual pleasure when I tried it. I wasn't 'made' into a masochist - I believe it was always in there, but it took the right person to bring it out.

I would like to stress that it's consensual sadistic play that works for me, and only with a person I really care about.

As for my childhood - middle child of a large, loving two-parent family with no history of abuse. Full of self-confidence, intelligent, lots of friends, good job...all that stuff.

My sadistic friend only really discovered his sadism when he tried it with another woman. He found that giving consensual pain turned him on. Now he has a willing masochist - what more could we both want? [:D]




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 12:25:35 AM)

Masochists- many are born, pain is just a sensation that trips your nerves to say "icky bad." Nerves can be messed with pretty easily.

Many can learn to have their pain to pleasure threshhold stretched and manipulated to a very large extent. It tends to take a lot of physiological retraining and blending of pain/pleasure stimuli.

I'm not one of them.

quote:

If this being the case, who would want or stick around someone that is inflicting unbareable pain to them when they are obviously not getting off on it?


I would, have and do, because I get off INDIRECTLY from it. As I like to say "I love everything about pain play except the pain part."

quote:

How would a relationship survive when everytime it's "play time" the receiving end is dreading it?


For me it wouldn't, not if it were every time. Tried and failed that. But if it's not every time, there's enough balance.
I love the submission, I love pleasing them, I love enduring, I love the visceral experience of real self dangling over that edge of emptiness, I love the fear (pain is scary!), I love the firebreath of life flowing through me afterwards.

And you shouldn't mix humiliation with pain when discussing kink, that will get things way more confused than necessary.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 12:38:58 AM)

And to note I use different terms for sadists

fluffy sadist- someone who likes to make the masochist happy/spacey/floaty and make them feel generally yummy through pain (this is me)

sadist- someone who wants the other person to be in ACTUAL PAIN, not enjoying it, not liking it and would otherwise avoid it



Bobanna -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 12:57:08 AM)

Thanks for some clarification ... I suppose another fair question would be, would a true masochist be able to just get off/feel pleasure on pain infliction alone, without any type of what we non-masochistic types would find pleasureable ?(such as stimulation of the clit, or other regions that are known to be an insta feel good place) also nixing the kind words of encouragement to bring the maso along?   I think I am thinking more along the non-fluffy types and wanting to know more about the pure types.   I'm asking because I'm confused of the term blending of pleasure and pain for remodification purposes.  Wouldnt a true masochist just thrive on the pain alone, why bring any type of pleasure into it?  No blending?  The pleasure would be within the pain nerve feeling alone correct?  And L.A. you are correct ... nix the humiliation part out all together.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 1:24:00 AM)

quote:

I suppose another fair question would be, would a true masochist be able to just get off/feel pleasure on pain infliction alone, without any type of what we non-masochistic types would find pleasureable ?


Hmm dunno about "true" vs untrue- some masochists can get off on pain in and of itself, yes.

quote:

Wouldnt a true masochist just thrive on the pain alone, why bring any type of pleasure into it? No blending?


You asked about converting someone into a masochist. There's a difference between pain threshhold and pain to pleasure threshhold.



DarkSteven -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 4:41:23 AM)

bobanna, please note that a lot of psychs and therapists are trained to believe that BDSM is equivalent to nonconsensual abuse.  Be very careful about believing what they say about the kink world.



DesFIP -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 6:00:44 AM)

That psychiatrist you talked to needs to update his DSM. Even the DSM 4 which will be replaced soon doesn't list it as a paraphilia unless it causes significant distress during daily life.

And if anyone who likes pain must have been abused, then all those chile contest types making and eating five alarm must be both sadistic and masochistic. After all that's pain, burning your mouth, having tears roll down your face, using harsh napkins because you can't find a tissue.

Oh, it's different when it's the sensation of taste than in the sensation of touch? But wait, getting slammed to the mat in wrestling involves the sense of touch. What about watching horror movies? It's okay to deliberately inflict pain on yourself if it's the sense of sight. So it's only wrong to willing agree to this if it's sexually related? Nope, not in my book. Personally I think you're born with a certain degree of this as you're born with a certain amount tastewise. But yes, you can expand your sex/pain as you can expand your palate.



lally2 -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 6:07:50 AM)

ill try and answer one of youre main questions:  im not someone who gets off on pain, goes high as a kite or gets all swimmy and horny - i just feel the pain as pain.  however there is a part of me that needs to feel it, needs to squirm and struggle, needs to submit to it.  therefore im not suitable for a 'fluffy' dominant who wants me to get off on the pain he inflicts - its not going to happen.  i am better suited to a sadist who wants to inflict pain and wants me to see me really struggle.  so for me, thats how it pans out regarding youre question on how does a sub submit to pain if they dont get off on it.

i get a catharsis simply through my submission to it and the pleasure/fulfillment i provide.

even so there is good pain (pain i can submit to) and bad pain that is impossible for me to submit to - so i have to choose my sadist carefully.  if he's into the bad pain categories that i cant submit to then its not a match for me.



Jeffff -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 6:09:32 AM)

I like to inflict pain. I like the power of it and quite frankly, it gets me off...:)

I wrestled with this for a while. Wouldn't a REAL sadist prefer to hurt someone who hated pain, could not stand it and did not want it?

I came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what a REAL sadist would do...:)

For myself I like a woman who feels the pain as pain. I like the fact that the body reacts to the discomfort. I also like it if in a way that I will probably never really understand, she gets off on it too.



lally2 -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 6:23:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I like to inflict pain. I like the power of it and quite frankly, it gets me off...:)

I wrestled with this for a while. Wouldn't a REAL sadist prefer to hurt someone who hated pain, could not stand it and did not want it?

I came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what a REAL sadist would do...:)

For myself I like a woman who feels the pain as pain. I like the fact that the body reacts to the discomfort. I also like it if in a way that I will probably never really understand, she gets off on it too.


i think in a way most subs do get off on it, but there are different 'getting offs' - during im struggling like hell, afterwards im in a peaceful place.  for others, i believe they do reach a high from the pain and that peaceful place afterwards.  its all in how a sub gets there maybe that kinda determines what sort of sadist they fix up with.

alot of D's have said to me that they are not at all sadistic, they want to see their partner really enjoying themselves in order for them to inflict pain at all.  that would be a total mismatch for me because i could not pretend to enjoy pain and they would have to 'service' me in a way that wouldnt feel right to them or me - my submission to it is all about giving them the pleasure of hurting me to satisfy their sadistic energy

a sub that enjoys pain would provide that pleasure to a Dominant who wants to see his sub enjoying herself
a sub who doesnt enjoy pain is providing pleasure to a Dominant who wants to see his sub struggle.

im sure its possible to mix and match but those are the two differences as i see them.



subsfaith -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 6:25:37 AM)

The root of masochism for me, is firmly ensconced within the nature/nurture debate.  I don’t think it can be definitively categorized as one or the other.  Perhaps there is an inherent influence, however, unless exposed to pain as pleasure will the masochism gene become active?  In some cases, I think not.   On a very base level, a vanilla level, most people can enjoy the sexual pain of receiving a love bite.  But that doesn’t qualify them as a masochist, that title is reserved for someone who actively pursues pain as a pleasurable experience on some level.   For me it was a conditioning process that highlighted my masochism.  Only when I met a man who liked to inflict pain, did I begin to embrace it in a positive manner.  His approval encouraged me and before I could only describe my feelings as craving pain.   I do find it quite fascinating that someone educated to the level of calling themselves a psychiatrist can say there is a correlation between masochism and abuse.  In the distant past there were studies that do point to this conclusion, however, more recent research says quite the opposite.  In my own research of empirical studies, I have found no causal link between the two.  But to answer your question, if someone does have an abusive background, yes they will bring a boatload of problems to the table, regardless of which table they present themselves at.   Regarding sadism, there are different classifications of sadists, just as there are masochists.  From weekend ass-slappers to all out bastards, it just depends where you see yourself on the spectrum and what your individual goals and motivations are.  Some sadists like pushing the buttons of those that don’t like it, and others are more pleasure givers and get their pleasure from that process.  But I really don’t see it as a case of being true, just fitting in the place that suits each person best.   To answer your question, who would want to stick around, well someone who has a high sense of submission would, someone who gets off on giving pleasure.  There will always be someone to fit the extreme roles, even if you personally couldn’t do it.



ReginaMirus -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 6:55:24 AM)

Yes, you need to get away from the "TRUE" or "REAL" label, as it tends to do nothing but piss people off. Some tend to get a bit offended when you arbitrarily label them as "fake" because they're not following what you think they should be following in your own head.




myotherself -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 6:56:50 AM)

*adores the anteater*



KnightofMists -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 9:30:51 AM)

First. lets drop the whole pretense of true or untrue Masochists or Sadists. The true or untrue implies a black and white world when it's many shades of grey with very little black and white sprinkled in.

It woud be nice if one could answer your questions with one simple answer all wrapped up in a bow. But the reality is that your questions have multiple answer that considering the specific circumstances might be accurate and in many others very inaccurate.

There is no scientific evidence that I am aware of to suggest that Sadism or Masochism are Nature or Nutured qualities and any opinion is speculation be it a reasoned opinion or a blind guess. But, to what value will this answer provide a person. If I told you the reason is X, to what help is this going to give you? I contend that it's not as important how it comes to being but more how to function with this aspect of oneself in a healthy manner. This might require a person to resist and avoid the activities for the sake of ones well-being like some must resist the drinking of alcohol or eating certain foods or any other activity that is unhealthy for a person. This also might require a person to understand how to engage in the activity that uplifts a person's well-being.

I can appreciate that in some cases it might be important to understand what causes it to help manage it. But, I don't believe a singular answer or reason is possible. I think the question is; 'can a person manage their masochist or sadistic desires in a constructive manner to the benefit of their well-being and others?'.

As a person that identifies as a Sadist, I have learned very early on that I enjoyed and could engage in the activities to the benefit of myself and those I play with. I also realized that there are some that the activity is not an healthy activity for them and avoid such individuals even though they themselves engage into the activities. I much prefer to avoid train wrecks whenever possible. This might be the type of individuals that this psychiatrist was referring to. There are indeed individuals that enter these activities because of those abusive experiences and continue the destructive experiences within the activities of SM. But, this is not universally true in all cases for those that engage in SM.

I would also state that the opinion that a 'true' sadist looks for non-masocists to engage into his activities with is rather narrow and Uninformed. It seems the individual is caught up in the common dogma and fantasy that seems to presist in this lifestyle activity. As a sadist, I can very much take a masocist and inflict pain upon them to the point where they don't enjoy it. Consider it like the person who is engaging in exercise in which they must exert significant effort that results in exhaust and even pain. But, they are driven into the activity not because of the momentary sensation they feel but also the results from their efforts by engaging in the activity. Secondly, the momentary pleasures received in the activity sometimes are not constantly feeling pleasure but can result into feelings of pain. Often the activity of SM is a cocktail of pleasure and painful sensations. I would also add that perception is reality. If I am perceiving that a person is feeling pain from my SM activity then enjoyment is going to occur. In fact, it's possible that the masocist perception a mixture of pleasures and pain. In other words, it should ot be surprizing that two or more people can have different perceptions of the same incident occuring. The fundamental reason that we can never be looking at the same incident from the exact same perspective and these perspectives are even more different for the sadist and masocist's point of view. I hold up a coin and see heads, you are standing in from of me seeing the same coin and see tails. Different perspectives of the same coin and SM play is like that as well.

Lastly, I have come to have a couple basic definitions of a sadist and masocist. A sadist is one motivated to cause pain and a masocist is one movitivated to receive pain. This doesn't reflect that either will do so in a heallthy or non-healthy way. Being able to so is another matter all to gether.



Bobanna -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 9:54:17 AM)

Thanks you all fror your responses ... I am sooooo much more understanding this !!  Knowledge is power !



laurell3 -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 10:02:32 AM)

Very well put KoM.

I would only add that the perception that masochists don't feel negative pain at all or can convert all pain into sensual pleasure is not necessarily true. I feel negative pain. I just process it differently mentally. It hurts believe me. Again, that sensation threshold is different for different people and there are different motivations/types of masochists as well, so that varies. The question about "unbearable pain" doesn't apply for me. Uncomfortable, painful, unpleasant as hell, as close to that as they can get yes, but not unbearable. I avoid finding partners that would push it to that extreme.



lally2 -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 10:40:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Very well put KoM.

I would only add that the perception that masochists don't feel negative pain at all or can convert all pain into sensual pleasure is not necessarily true. I feel negative pain. I just process it differently mentally. It hurts believe me. Again, that sensation threshold is different for different people and there are different motivations/types of masochists as well, so that varies. The question about "unbearable pain" doesn't apply for me. Uncomfortable, painful, unpleasant as hell, as close to that as they can get yes, but not unbearable. I avoid finding partners that would push it to that extreme.


ive just read his post, and im not contradicting you atall, i agree with you, but i dont see where he said that - i did read that 'all' massochists convert pain into pleasure and pain and that isnt so for me at all either.  i dont convert pain as pleasure at all - pain is pain - i have absolutely no conception of how you can feel pain as a pleasurable sensation - what happens for me (i think) is the cathartic effect of dealing with the pain, submitting to it and the deep sense of peace i get when its over.

i met a guy once who believed that he could train me to convert pain to pleasure, i was totally up for it, seemed like a win win situation to me, but it didnt work.  ive taken alot of pain and never hit the endorphin rush.



laurell3 -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 11:17:30 AM)

oh I'm not saying KoM did say that.....I'm referring to the quote about the "true sadist" not liking masos because they don't experience negative pain....sorry if that wasn't clear.

I do eventually get the endorphin rush...so I guess I'm lucky there. But I do agree with you that for me, the majority of the "pleasure" is the mental aspect. And I have grown to associate certain things as pleasurable that I didn't before at all...then again, we are all different. It's just me, I'm not saying anyone should be me.



lally2 -> RE: Masochists, are they made or born? And what is a true Sadist? (5/22/2010 11:23:42 AM)

hows the cake [:D]



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