The European model: payback time? (Full Version)

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Level -> The European model: payback time? (5/24/2010 4:05:09 AM)

quote:

PARIS — Across Western Europe, the “lifestyle superpower,” the assumptions and gains of a lifetime are suddenly in doubt. The deficit crisis that threatens the euro has also undermined the sustainability of the European standard of social welfare, built by left-leaning governments since the end of World War II.


quote:

With low growth, low birthrates and longer life expectancies, Europe can no longer afford its comfortable lifestyle, at least not without a period of austerity and significant changes. The countries are trying to reassure investors by cutting salaries, raising legal retirement ages, increasing work hours and reducing health benefits and pensions.


quote:

According to the European Commission, by 2050 the percentage of Europeans older than 65 will nearly double. In the 1950s there were seven workers for every retiree in advanced economies. By 2050, the ratio in the European Union will drop to 1.3 to 1.


quote:

In Athens, Mr. Iordanidis, the graduate who makes 800 euros a month in a bookstore, said he saw one possible upside. “It could be a chance to overhaul the whole rancid system,” he said, “and create a state that actually works.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/world/europe/23europe.html?pagewanted=1&adxnnl=1&ref=general&src=me&adxnnlx=1274698843-pKUt4Euxpvftf1wJ37Zcqg

Should be an interesting upcoming decade...



pahunkboy -> RE: The European model: payback time? (5/24/2010 4:19:06 AM)

I dont buy it.

Now when trillions hand out to banks.

Sorry- but this is a prompt to class wars.



LadyEllen -> RE: The European model: payback time? (5/24/2010 6:46:41 AM)

Overall it a valid enough concept Level, but its important to bear in mind that you are not looking at a whole here but rather a host wherein the situation in each country is markedly different to others. At best one might group together a few here and there that share some common characteristics - indeed this is why the Euro project was and ever will be until political, economic and fiscal union a shaky proposition requiring props for support.

Clearly there are some characteristics that do not lend themselves to competition with the "developing economies". The insistence on adequate working wages, healthcare free at point of delivery, social benefit programmes, working time regulations and paid vacation, pensions and the like are non negotiable past a certain point. That there may be other areas and that there are certain aspects of these redline items that will have to change (retirement age, working hours) is certain, but we cannot possibly win in the race to the bottom and there is no way we should even try.

Moreover that we do not need to engage in the race to the bottom must be remembered. There is actually more than enough capacity to generate the wealth we need within Europe and more than enough will to maintain the social and political progress made since 1945 that in theory the shutters could be brought down if that were necessary. We are a long way from that but the possibility exists.

It must also be remembered that the European model varies substantially from the British model which is informed by the American Way (TM). The differences are more than detail - they turn on the significant difference between the notion that free market capitalism is an end in itself (as per the American/British model) and the notion that free market capitalism fulfils and is obligated to fulfil a social purpose.

E



pahunkboy -> RE: The European model: payback time? (5/24/2010 8:06:28 AM)

Thats odd.  I thought UK was more like the EU- then the US.



LadyEllen -> RE: The European model: payback time? (5/24/2010 8:56:18 AM)

Its a hybrid - more social provision than the US but not as much as in Europe; the economic philosophy meanwhile is wholly the same as the US

E



pahunkboy -> RE: The European model: payback time? (5/24/2010 9:13:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Its a hybrid - more social provision than the US but not as much as in Europe; the economic philosophy meanwhile is wholly the same as the US

E


Ok.  TY.  I had suspected that to be true but was unsure.



DCWoody -> RE: The European model: payback time? (5/24/2010 9:18:37 AM)

Traditionally Brits didn't considered themselves European....Europe was the continent, Britain, Ireland, Iceland....not in Europe.

Somewhat dodgy certainly, but as the whole idea of Europe is cultural at most....geologically speaking there is no such continent as Europe.....I figure we can be not European if we want.

Re OP....nah, Greece is a special case where the govt was pretty much cooking the books....there are some nations with huge debts, some of which are in Europe, but there are some nations with no debt or even savings, some of which are in Europe. AFAIK total debt is still highest in Japan, deficit still highest in USA. Aging population is a problem, but generally one wrought from success, and doesn't vary with the left/rightness of nations. It's just an article...displaying impressive levels of denial about usas own national finances....weaving a story agreeing with what their readers already want to think.



pahunkboy -> RE: The European model: payback time? (5/24/2010 11:55:35 AM)

Woody,  for sure- there is a LOT of dis-information.   One has to watch the trigger words. 



servantforuse -> RE: The European model: payback time? (5/24/2010 1:06:15 PM)

The US is headed in the same direction. Just a matter of time.There will not be enough workers to fund social security and medicare. CA alone has 500 billion in unfunded pensions.



Fellow -> RE: The European model: payback time? (5/24/2010 1:24:07 PM)

I do not see it as specifically European model. All Western democracies run basically the same model. The major characteristics are the same: the governments run fiscal deficits, the monetary system is basically a Bonzi scheme for the rich, when the crisis occurs the policies implemented are directed to protect the financial markets (owned mostly by the wealthy). The already poor are asked (and forced) to make sacrifices.  There is lot of propaganda (without proper analysis) accusing certain groups (usually low level laborers) making too much income. The last may be true for few examples (usually blown up for propaganda purposes), but it is not generally the case. For example there was a talk US car manufacturing unionized workers make huge salaries. Actually,  the salaries are very low (usually 14 - 18 dollars per hour) and manufacturing cost contributes  only 10% of car price.  Talking about macro economics we have to look at "macro data" like GDP, income, debt, and tax distribution. The solution is not putting more pressure on low income earners but to boost their income up.  The reason for benefits is the lack of income. Governments should implement policies that make the incomes grow but not letting the incomes shrink and trying to substitute it with benefits (at the same time borrowing). 



DCWoody -> RE: The European model: payback time? (5/24/2010 1:27:34 PM)

Most all of what you describe all western democracies as doing, isn't done by aforementioned.



zephyroftheNorth -> RE: The European model: payback time? (5/24/2010 1:39:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Its a hybrid - more social provision than the US but not as much as in Europe; the economic philosophy meanwhile is wholly the same as the US

E


Do you - or any of the other Brits here - see that changing with your newly-elected Government?



DCWoody -> RE: The European model: payback time? (5/24/2010 1:47:18 PM)

Nobody wants to be more like america, most (of the populace and the govt) don't want to be european either. I can't see it changing too much....it's possible welfare may be modified somewhat, to ease immigration fears if nothing else, but IMO more likely not due to the liberal democrat influence.



pahunkboy -> RE: The European model: payback time? (5/24/2010 2:01:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The US is headed in the same direction. Just a matter of time.There will not be enough workers to fund social security and medicare. CA alone has 500 billion in unfunded pensions.


3 years and PA pensions explode.



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