Believing in M/s

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Silence8 -> Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:07:24 PM)
I'm always fascinated how many people will claim without a blink they live 'real' M/s relationship. (Maybe, with only a blink, you 'Last Man' you!) It's amazing how the thing-itself in this case (slavery) is this structural impossibility, just like the Holocaust is the measure that cannot be measured, this incomparable event to which everyone compares everything. Belief is unbelievable. You can believe you believe something, but not actually believe it (e.g., modern people in religion). You can believe you don't believe something, but actually believe it (this is paradoxically, I think, how atheism functions). Niels Bohr, the famous scientist, was once visited at his summer house by a friend. The friend noticed a horseshoe above the door, that is, a traditional European superstition. The friend asks Bohr, 'Do you really believe in this?', and Bohr immediately responds something to the effect of, 'What? Are you crazy? I'm a scientist! Of course I don't believe in this ridiculous superstition!' -- but then he adds a bit of sage wisdom: 'But I've been told it works even if you don't believe in it!' Isn't this, likewise, how democracy functions? No one really is foolish enough to believe that his or her voice is represented, but everyone assumes the system functions even without one's belief. Similarly, when people present themselves to you, and tell you these (usually quite ridiculous) stories of their livelihood, one cannot help but sensing that, in believing what you hear, you are in fact the only (critical) support for the truth of what you hear. This is what truth becomes, then, in a profoundly empty (almost Buddhist?) way -- consenting mutually to believe the unbelievable.

LadyPact -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:16:23 PM)
Do you know any folks who are living a M/s dynamic? Visited their homes, spent time with them, sat at their table or on their patio? Talked with them about their lives while you shared some of yours? Yes, Virginia. There is a Santa Claus.

Silence8 -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:21:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Do you know any folks who are living a M/s dynamic? Visited their homes, spent time with them, sat at their table or on their patio? Talked with them about their lives while you shared some of yours? Yes, Virginia. There is a Santa Claus. I've lived it myself. With several partners (consecutively, not at the same time). I've also been involved in local scene activity, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. [yawn]

lucylucy -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:24:04 PM)
I'm confused. Is there a question or discussion starter that I'm missing?

SocratesNot -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:26:12 PM)
I think that M/s dynamic is just a concept, hyperbolic to some extent and has nothing to do with individual "M/s" relationships, which are usually somewhat short of what concept of pure M/s really means.And yes, I think there is a bit of delusion in the participants. Slaves think they are more enslaved than they really are (if they are at all REALLY enslaved), Masters think they own their slaves more then they really own them (if they REALLY own them at all). So, yes - I think all these relationships are a little too much influenced by prescriptive theories of M/s found in books, even more so are minds of participants influenced by concepts from books. Actually, if there weren't books and concepts in the first place, almost no one would develop the concept on their own and incorporate it in relationship. Most of Masters and slaves would never become what they are if they didn't learn about this concept from books, blogs, websites etc, or from local M/s or BDSM community.

LadyPact -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:26:37 PM)
Is that what spawned the post? I couldn't help but notice that you used the past tense. Are you asking because it didn't last and your slave is no longer yours?

KnightofMists -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:33:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 I've lived it myself. With several partners (consecutively, not at the same time). It is impossible because you are unable to do it? mmmmmmmmm I guess no one can ever walked on the moon either.

Silence8 -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:33:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot I think that M/s dynamic is just a concept, hyperbolic to some extent and has nothing to do with individual "M/s" relationships, which are usually somewhat short of what concept of pure M/s really means.And yes, I think there is a bit of delusion in the participants. Slaves think they are more enslaved than they really are (if they are at all REALLY enslaved), Masters think they own their slaves more then they really own them (if they REALLY own them at all). So, yes - I think all these relationships are a little too much influenced by prescriptive theories of M/s found in books, even more so are minds of participants influenced by concepts from books. Actually, if there weren't books and concepts in the first place, almost no one would develop the concept on their own and incorporate it in relationship. Most of Masters and slaves would never become what they are if they didn't learn about this concept from books, blogs, websites etc, or from local M/s or BDSM community. Interesting point -- how language (and culture) potentially enables the very categories of desire.... Hegel develops the dynamics of Master/slave in his 'Lordship and Bondage' -- there's been some speculation that he constructed the idea in the wake of the Haitian revolution, which captured the attention of most of Europe. The whole idea fits with his idea of negation of negation, that to enslave someone you have use your identity (equality) with someone in order to establish an inequality --> negating the negation (the inequality) is the emancipatory act. I think, for me, D/s is all about creating something to be dissolved, again and again -- it's, perhaps, 'performative', hence, more real than real!

LadyPact -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:35:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot Actually, if there weren't books and concepts in the first place, almost no one would develop the concept on their own and incorporate it in relationship. Most of Masters and slaves would never become what they are if they didn't learn about this concept from books, blogs, websites etc, or from local M/s or BDSM community. Not to sound condescending, but who do you think wrote the books? To parallel your thought, Christians would not become Christians if they never read the bible or went to church. How else would they become Christians? In many walks of life, people get information from an outside source and then chose to bring it into their lives.

Silence8 -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:36:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 I've lived it myself. With several partners (consecutively, not at the same time). It is impossible because you are unable to do it? mmmmmmmmm I guess no one can ever walked on the moon either. I think I'm developing impossibility as a 'positive' entity (if you must). To create infinite desire that replenishes itself, you must embrace impossibility. (Notice how freedom, basically, is an impossible notion, but it still functions).

Silence8 -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:39:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot Actually, if there weren't books and concepts in the first place, almost no one would develop the concept on their own and incorporate it in relationship. Most of Masters and slaves would never become what they are if they didn't learn about this concept from books, blogs, websites etc, or from local M/s or BDSM community. Not to sound condescending, but who do you think wrote the books? To parallel your thought, Christians would not become Christians if they never read the bible or went to church. How else would they become Christians? In many walks of life, people get information from an outside source and then chose to bring it into their lives. Christianity is an impossible religion -- that's why it's so effective. God crediting God with his own son? It's wonderfully insane. Jesus, on the cross, shouting, 'God why have you forsaken me? [God, why don't you exist positively?]' Christianity is an atheist religion -- that's the trick!

KnightofMists -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:39:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot I think that M/s dynamic is just a concept, hyperbolic to some extent and has nothing to do with individual "M/s" relationships, which are usually somewhat short of what concept of pure M/s really means.And yes, I think there is a bit of delusion in the participants. Slaves think they are more enslaved than they really are (if they are at all REALLY enslaved), Masters think they own their slaves more then they really own them (if they REALLY own them at all). So, yes - I think all these relationships are a little too much influenced by prescriptive theories of M/s found in books, even more so are minds of participants influenced by concepts from books. Actually, if there weren't books and concepts in the first place, almost no one would develop the concept on their own and incorporate it in relationship. Most of Masters and slaves would never become what they are if they didn't learn about this concept from books, blogs, websites etc, or from local M/s or BDSM community. lol... oh my... if it wasn't for books we wouldn't be who we are! My gosh this sounds like some Nazi book burning party. Burn the books and we will be saved. If only we stayed as cavemen without books...such a simpler time back in the good ole days.

Silence8 -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:40:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists lol... oh my... if it wasn't for books we wouldn't be who we are! My gosh this sounds like some Nazi book burning party. Burn the books and we will be saved. If only we stayed as cavemen without books...such a simpler time back in the good ole days. Read the OP on Nazism as an example.

SocratesNot -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:43:27 PM)
quote: Not to sound condescending, but who do you think wrote the books? To parallel your thought, Christians would not become Christians if they never read the bible or went to church. How else would they become Christians? In many walks of life, people get information from an outside source and then chose to bring it into their lives. People who originate concepts are in extreme minority. Edison is one man, yet everyone uses the light bulb. While religion and electric bulb are created concepts, relationships are things that usually occur naturally. So, relationships based on concepts from books are a little artificial to me.

LadyPact -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:45:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 Christianity is an impossible religion -- that's why it's so effective. God crediting God with his own son? It's wonderfully insane. Jesus, on the cross, shouting, 'God why have you forsaken me? [God, why don't you exist positively?]' Christianity is an atheist religion -- that's the trick! Oddly enough, I don't think it is. Unlike your first premise, there is literally no possible way that either of us can disprove the other's standpoint. I can not show you physical evidence that there is a God anymore than you can show Me physical evidence that there is not. Probably also a concept that might be better for us to avoid, as I wouldn't want to see your thread end up in the Politics and Religion section.

xXsoumisXx -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:47:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot I think that M/s dynamic is just a concept, hyperbolic to some extent and has nothing to do with individual "M/s" relationships, which are usually somewhat short of what concept of pure M/s really means.And yes, I think there is a bit of delusion in the participants. Slaves think they are more enslaved than they really are (if they are at all REALLY enslaved), Masters think they own their slaves more then they really own them (if they REALLY own them at all). So, yes - I think all these relationships are a little too much influenced by prescriptive theories of M/s found in books, even more so are minds of participants influenced by concepts from books. Actually, if there weren't books and concepts in the first place, almost no one would develop the concept on their own and incorporate it in relationship. Most of Masters and slaves would never become what they are if they didn't learn about this concept from books, blogs, websites etc, or from local M/s or BDSM community. wow. so i guess all this is so very new.. interesting.

MsLadySue -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:47:43 PM)
~ ~ ~ Warning! Brief thread hijack! ~ ~ ~ It would be interesting to put SocratesNot and Silence8 in a locked room and see how long it takes for them to solve all the world's problems. ~ ~ ~ End of hijack! ~ ~ ~

subtee -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:50:01 PM)
The author is dead. The words matter to the one reading/hearing them. An unread text doesn't matter. You forgot that you can believe that you believe something and actually believe it. And if someone believes your truth, as unbelievable as it may seem to others, then what does it matter beyond that?

xXsoumisXx -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 9:50:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsLadySue ~ ~ ~ Warning! Brief thread hijack! ~ ~ ~ It would be interesting to put SocratesNot and Silence8 in a locked room and see how long it takes for them to solve all the world's problems. ~ ~ ~ End of hijack! ~ ~ ~ wouldn't take long i'm sure!

Silence8 -> RE: Believing in M/s (5/27/2010 10:02:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 Christianity is an impossible religion -- that's why it's so effective. God crediting God with his own son? It's wonderfully insane. Jesus, on the cross, shouting, 'God why have you forsaken me? [God, why don't you exist positively?]' Christianity is an atheist religion -- that's the trick! Oddly enough, I don't think it is. Unlike your first premise, there is literally no possible way that either of us can disprove the other's standpoint. I can not show you physical evidence that there is a God anymore than you can show Me physical evidence that there is not. Probably also a concept that might be better for us to avoid, as I wouldn't want to see your thread end up in the Politics and Religion section. I'm just showing the power of establishing nice impossibilities, that because M/s doesn't work, it works even better. The standard rules of logic (that apply to stupid things, like bowling balls) do not apply to something as, shall we say, in the spirit of your post, transcendent as the human mind... But, disagree if you must. Perhaps I'm just being a stupid Kant...

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