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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/30/2010 2:04:14 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBehavior

. Because the argument started when he waxed on and on about what his previous Dommes had done (mostly professionals, I might add), and I kept redirecting him to my question: "Make me a list of what you like and don't like." That's where the tension came in, if you see what I mean. I literally couldn't get him to start a sentence with, "I like" such and so, or "I don't like" such and so. He gave me these scenarios from his old Dommes, and I asked, "Is that something that you want to try?" and I couldn't get a straight answer.


Highlights mine.
In another post you called him more of a 'sensualist' and you more of a 'sadist.'  In other posts you called him a novice. He's had experience but with pros, and pros with a certain style.  He likes what he likes and he is used to being catered to. He refused to participate in communication and then got mad later.  My opinion?  He wants free domination based on what he got used to, he wants sensual play (his style) and he is a selfish crybaby.

Did he asked what you liked and didn't like? Did he ask if YOU were having a good time?  Did he participate in the process or expect you to be a mind reader, and then when you didn't, sulked and punished you?  You have a people-pleasing side, I think and he's being manipulative.  A novice (at relationships bdsm style) combined with all experience with pros is a bad combination if he also lacks communication skills and is passive aggressive.  I see all of that.  Drop him.

Akasha


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(in reply to MzBehavior)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/30/2010 2:22:03 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		I wasn't there so honestly offering real insight into this sort of a problem is going to be hard as hell. The only thought I have which may or may not be helpful is that in my experience, it takes time for two people two work out the kinks and knock off the rough spots in a relationship. Carol and I sure argued and fought a lot more in year one than we do now in year 15.

Insofar as whether or not it's appropriate for a sub to argue and/or fight, I don't have an opinion. Somehow shit has to get worked out. I would say it's up to you as the Domme to define how that is. You will bear the burden of success or failure for whatever strategy you choose. Personally, I'm a "cards up on the table" sort of guy. So if Carol has something she needs to get out... including anger... then I want it right up on the table top where we can both see it.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to MzBehavior)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/30/2010 3:26:19 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBehavior

am I supposed to be thinking around all of these boxes and anticipating even how me might respond to something? In your opinion, is that a part of my responsibility for him and for the outcome of the situation?


Yes, We do feel you are responsible, up to a point. We feel that, if you didn't get what you wanted, you didn't make your orders clear. HOWEVER, this sentiment works with Ms relationships, not necessarily all kinds of relationships... and it assumes the slave/sub is fully capable of good communication and has consented to such a sentiment. Neither of these is usually the case for a new person, especially a male submissive from the macho south (in Our experience).

What you DO have control of is setting the tone of the first play sessions in order to gain his trust and desire to serve you rather than his compliance because he's serving his fetish. You setting this tone doesn't mean that you will gain this trust, because he simply may be a fetishist (which is fun and wonderful), but it means you're doing your part... and, it also means that you might be better able to spot problem areas because the scenarios are simple.

It is Our opinion that you should be transparent about what you are doing (i.e. setting up situations that are both controlled but relatively non-threatening) and that you should avoid catering to the slave/sub's fetish goals in any manner that is uncomfortable for you. Meeting someone else's needs and desires is excellent, but when you feel you have been objectified into a thing to give said fetishes, this becomes a problem (voice of experience here, especially with male submissive from a macho southern society!).

So, if you want to try and keep this one, state that you are going to begin again. Ask him what kind of settings (i.e. public or private) makes him the most COMFORTABLE. This isn't about fantasy fulfillment, but about comfort and establishing trust. Find out what makes him feel "ansy"... those things are for later. Then, take what he has told you and build something that you like around it. Our guess is he'll be more comfortable with private, one-on-one play or public play at a party.

In addition, choose "milder" forms of play in the beginning while still working to get needs and desires met. This can be a tricky balance sometimes, but, unless both of you are experienced, it is the best route, in Our opinion. Learn together.

Rules about proper communicate need to be set in place and enforced each and every time, for the both of you. If someone escalates to yelling, you can be sure that party isn't listening because they are focusing all their energy on being heard. That's why we yell.

The first step to good communication is realizing something is wrong emotionally and stating it. Many people can only state that something feels wrong, but are unable to explain what until some time later. Having each of you simply state that something is wrong, but you don't know what and you'll revisit it when you do is a huge start.

Time outs are a good tool, too. If one of you starts to get worked up in a negative way, stop the conversation with the promise to return to it when both parties are less agitated. Then, actually return to the conversation and don't let it just slip away.

Hope this helps.

Master Fire


_____________________________

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(in reply to MzBehavior)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/30/2010 6:34:06 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Hi beej/MzBehavior! Great to see you posting again. Not all of my kinky relationships have involved D/s, but the ones that have didn't involve stepping out of role or stopping being dominant (or submissive, respectively). The dynamic didn't start and stop, any more than stopping and starting being boyfriend/girlfriend. In the egalitarian kinky relationships I've had, there was some degree of dominance on my part, especially with respect to play, but extending into other aspects, but not an explicit "I'm always in charge" agreement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBehavior
Because the argument started when he waxed on and on about what his previous Dommes had done (mostly professionals, I might add), and I kept redirecting him to my question: "Make me a list of what you like and don't like." That's where the tension came in, if you see what I mean. I literally couldn't get him to start a sentence with, "I like" such and so, or "I don't like" such and so. He gave me these scenarios from his old Dommes, and I asked, "Is that something that you want to try?" and I couldn't get a straight answer.

I'm afraid that I've had a similar response to questions about activities. Unlike him, I was able to make generalisations - I usually prefer thud to sting, but love singletails and some canes, for example. While there are some sensations that I have fairly consistent responses to, so much of it depends on my partner and their reactions and responses that it can be difficult to be sure whether I like the activity itself, or just the way they are doing it to me (or I am doing it to them). I figure just about any toy or technique can be used in a way I'll love or hate, and even my limits tend to be about degree rather than kind. My pain tolerance shifts depending on how warmed up I am, the emotional content of the scene, whether or not I'm submissive to my partner, what time of the month it is (IYKWIM), and other factors. So, it *is* a bit nebulous. It's a lot easier for me to say, well, I have had x difficulty with y in the past, but I'm willing to give it another try, or I've really loved a and b so far, but either could easily be taken past my pain tolerance, than it is to give a blanket checklist. Even as a Domme or Top, I'm driven much more by the way my partner writhes, yelps, squeals, screams, and flinches than by what I am using to elicit those reactions. In that situation, I won't do activities I object to, or do them in a mindset that is problematic (ie. I am ok with helping someone crossdress, but "forced femme" feels sexist to me), but in general, I'm pretty openminded and flexible.

However, I am very communicative (on either/both sides of the whip), and I'm certainly not into yelling. I agree that his way of bringing up his difficulties was unacceptable. Having a delayed reaction to some things, maybe even having a little difficulty in putting what he felt into words, is reasonable. Ambushing you and yelling at you is not a reasonable method of conflict resolution, in my opinion.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 5/30/2010 6:43:18 PM >

(in reply to MzBehavior)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/30/2010 6:51:41 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		You took a boyfriend/sub of a couple of months duration, out of the city , with your friends, in your cabin, with your mentor and wonder why he was uncomfortable.

It seems to me most men have trouble expressing themselves - and this guy was wayyyyyy out of his depth. Add to that a dynamic that seems a bit schtizophrenic in its changing roles - boyfriend/sub - and i'm not surprised that he had trouble.

Perhaps the next fellow you take under your wing will have a bit more time to get used to you and your ways before you take him away from everything that he is comfortable with.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/31/2010 7:37:03 AM   
theGuideGoddess


Posts: 135
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBehavior

Recently, I was seriously considering a sub. We'd been dating (about a month), and then last weekend, I invited him to a kinky camping trip, the first in a series that I'm taking with a few friends. It was our first play experience together. During the weekend and afterward, we got into two arguments. I enjoy an argument in general, but these sat on that razor edge of being a fight.



A month from zero to sixty and because the tires smoked you are going to dump him?  You could barely know anyone in just a month.  In my opinion it takes years to actually know someone.  Trust comes in levels and grows over time.  The trust that I share with my partner has grown and certainly changed during our ten years together.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBehavior
In the first argument (during the weekend), we were in a Home Depot picking out rope so that I could tie him up in a dragonfly sleeve, and he made some remarks about my friends with whom we were camping. The remarks were rude and distrustful, even though I'd given him a chance to get to know my friends before the weekend and he'd already spent a whole day with them and had seemed to enjoy himself. Basically, I had the sense that he'd been putting on a face/faking it for my friends. I told him that if he wasn't happy, he should leave, but he certainly could not stay under duress. He back tracked pretty fast from everything that he'd said and claimed that maybe it was just culture shock. We live in Central Alabama, and we're both from metropolitan areas, so that was reasonable. I let it slide since he said that he was having a good time and wanted to continue. And honestly, the rest of the weekend was lovely.


Cleary your level of ‘knowing’ is far different than mine, perhaps his as well.  Perhaps it is that I am simply old and slow, but as I said before knowing takes time…..LOTS of time!  I have a friend of 30+ years and he should know me better than anyone I have ever known.  But due to his failure to actually hearing me I find him to be the winner of the “Big Don’t Get It” of my life.  I am slow to open up to people and feel safe enough to just say how I exactly feel.  Sometimes it even takes me a good spell of time to analyze my own feelings to be able to share them.  It’s a personality thing that has grown from life experiences.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBehavior
In the second fight (a few days after the weekend), I was asking about his advanced play preferences and limits since I was planning to stage an interrogation for our next camping trip. I wanted to know what extreme things he liked and didn't and I asked him to make a list. Instead of telling me that, he kind of pussy-footed into comments about things that his previous Dommes had done, things that I specifically had not done over the weekend. Basically his previous Dommes were sensualists and I'm a sadist. I think he was trying to tell me what he would like to do, but it was like a delayed reaction or a list of grievances that he'd bottled up instead of saying them in the moment last weekend. Mind you, over the weekend, there was plenty of down time/non-play time in which I asked if he were having a good time, if he'd been okay with such and so, etc. Also, every activity had been discussed beforehand. Also, one of my friends was a mentor/advanced player who was teaching us safe and consensual technique, and she spent a lot of time talking to him and checking in with him as well, independently of me. At one point, he went off to have a watergun fight with her because he liked her so much. I also did arts and crafts, something he enjoys that I couldn't give a flying fuck about, so that it would be a welcoming weekend as it was our first play experience. So I feel comfortable assuming that he had every opportunity, and that he felt comfortable enough, to speak his mind before to myself or someone else.

I think he was communicating with you as best as he could at the time.  For you to simply dismiss him and write him off after such an extremely brief period of time could do nothing positive for the trust that is necessary to be completely free and open with another.  Either in your relationship with him or for his future.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBehavior
After the second argument, I cut him loose. I believe that arguing such as we were doing is a sign that something has gone wrong, and even if it isn't anyone's fault, it cannot continue. If I can't control my temper, we cannot go on. Now I've heard back from him, apologies, etc. He's backtracking from his statements like he did the first time. I told him that I would not entertain any conversation for fear of more volatile arguing, but he could email me if he wanted to wrap things up on a good note.


Again, I feel you have sabotaged the potential to build a strong and trusting relationship by not only expecting, but demanding that he BE what you demand in hyper time or be gone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBehavior
I passed my decision by a friend, and she thinks that I'm being too high handed. Specifically she said that arguing was a relationship matter but that he'd been a perfect sub. She says that he's allowed to argue with me, as my boyfriend, about whatever he likes, but because he's my sub, of course he wouldn't argue with me in the moment. Basically, she thinks that his delayed reactions are appropriate behavior from a loyal sub because over the weekend, he was in my environment and with my friends as my submissive.


Your friend….and I am imagining that she ‘knows’ you (in the for what it is actually worth section given your perception of knowing people…perhaps judgmental on my side) I would listen to her.  She will be more objective, whereas you are within the situation and often that impairs people objecivability.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBehavior
I disagree because as I said, during the weekend, there were times when we were specifically "on"/in play, and times when we were specifically "off"/just boyfriend and girlfriend. There were late night conversations that had nothing to do with BDSM, and no one was around then, and he could have discussed any of his concerns with me while I might have been able to do something about them or make adjustments. Instead, he waited until he felt emotionally pressed, and I think that's why the arguments popped up in such an unexpected fashion, if you see what I mean. Because I've been talking to him in this same fashion all along. I can only assume that this behavioral change is because before when we were only dating, things were egalitarian, and now that he's been my sub and the scales tipped, he's splitting his behavior between two modes, sub and boyfriend.


I haven’t read your profile and perhaps you are a serial relationist, but again I would ask you for the sake of others to determine if your expectations are realistic and fair to the other side.  What is asked for in a D’s relationship is at such a higher level than vanilla.  Clearly it isn’t unrealistic that it should take far more work and time to reach the levels we desire.  I get really irritated with people expecting their relationships to be like Burger King:  I want it now and I want it my way!

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBehavior

Any insight would be much appreciated. I feel like I made some kind of grievous tactical error that I don't want to repeat with another solid prospect. Thanks.




What I have said here are my opinions and perhaps something to mull over and use as food for thought.  On an aside note I have been studying relationships and psychology for a life time, so my perspective will obviously be unique to my knowledge.

If I were you I would put on the brakes a tad, and try to re-open the door to communication.  It is, after all, one of the keys foundations of what you are looking for.  It isn’t hot and now and sometimes YOU have to be patient.

(in reply to MzBehavior)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Arguing With A Sub - 6/1/2010 11:49:48 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBehavior
Regarding his comfort level with public play: It seems clear that he couldn't quite get comfortable with it, and perhaps I was asking for him to adjust to too much. But the thing is, he knew what the circumstances would be, and he agreed. He even said that he fantasized about being in service to/humiliated by more than one woman at once. In practice, it would seem that fantasy wasn't the same as reality, and I have no grievance with him wanting to change his mind or taking a step back.


It could be he agreed without enthusiasm for your sake. It could be he agreed to an experience he had not had and when the reality arrived, as you allow, it was not as good as the fantasy. It could be that his fantasy of being in service to more than one woman was affected by chemistry or attraction he felt towards your friend.

For future such occasions, it might help to specifically check how the new activity is going using a scale versus a yes or no approach.

quote:

I guess what I'm asking is, am I supposed to be thinking around all of these boxes and anticipating even how me might respond to something? In your opinion, is that a part of my responsibility for him and for the outcome of the situation? Because looking back on it, I think I argued with him as I would argue with a man in an egalitarian relationship. I don't think I argued with him as my sub, if you see what I'm saying, and perhaps that was a mistake on my part.


It is unclear whether how much he viewed the argument also at an egalitarian level versus a D/s level. And I wonder if the dynamic did influence the argument even if you were trying to have it at an egalitarian level. It seems to me that argument at Home Depot may have had a tinge of D/s in it.

It is not your responsibility to read him mind and so he certainly has a share in it. Instead of thinking about who is responsible for what, I wonder if you might instead see it as something for which you both collaborate for success, and look at what needs to be done for sake of success.  Thus, if he hasn't or isn't able to communicate his side, it would serve the goal if you proactively sought out that information or brought him to a point until he was able to do so independently. Another option is to give greater emphasis on communication skills upfront. However, I would give greater emphasis on nature of a person versus skills that can be learned.

Lastly, people here will comment based on their experiences and lenses. Some of us will relate to his position and perhaps sympathize with him. Some of us will project prior unhappy experiences onto the situation. They do not know you or him enough to reliably comment. I would rely more on what you know about him, and comments of your friend who knows each of you.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to MzBehavior)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Arguing With A Sub - 6/1/2010 12:38:43 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
In another post you called him more of a 'sensualist' and you more of a 'sadist.'  In other posts you called him a novice. He's had experience but with pros, and pros with a certain style.  He likes what he likes and he is used to being catered to. He refused to participate in communication and then got mad later.  My opinion?  He wants free domination based on what he got used to, he wants sensual play (his style) and he is a selfish crybaby.

Did he asked what you liked and didn't like? Did he ask if YOU were having a good time?  Did he participate in the process or expect you to be a mind reader, and then when you didn't, sulked and punished you?  You have a people-pleasing side, I think and he's being manipulative.  A novice (at relationships bdsm style) combined with all experience with pros is a bad combination if he also lacks communication skills and is passive aggressive.  I see all of that.  Drop him.


I have read into the matter very differently.

A man who is selfish should have no trouble giving a list of what he likes. It seems to me the issue is more one of communication skills.

It could be that a man dated you for however long (less than a month) before the first play at the camping trip was faking it so he could eventually be played for free. It could be he tried to get along with your friends only so that he could eventually be played for free. It could be he did the things people who date might do only to deceive you so that he could eventually be played for free. Or it could be that he was trying to have a relationship with you and it is a question of communication and two novices navigating through their early experiences.

quote:

Not a bad guy by any means, but I can't coax information out of a man, and he certainly gave no indication of having a jello spine before this happened. I don't want to be disrespectful of the fact that he was trying to be a good sub for me


Again, you know the situation and the people involved better than others here. As for the nature of the person, I would listen to comments made for any insight that appeals to you but would rely more on your instincts and comments of your friends than on what Akasha or I read into it.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Arguing With A Sub - 6/1/2010 6:38:06 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
Some subs, including myself, can feel reluctant to say what they want done to them because (1) they do not wish to come across as demanding or the do-me subs or (2) because it feels counter to the dynamic.


Yes, that would be me, too.  Grit my teeth and get on with it: the whole point is that she really, really gets into the swing of being in control, because that's the golden fleece, the thing I want most.

But there's another thing - perhaps even more basic:  a lot of the feelings that surge through at first are very difficult to articulate.  Or they have been, for me.  Granted, I'm something of a greenhorn - but I'm a pretty articulate person, by most people's standards. 

Nonetheless, I think it's worth remembering that a submissive is there to be overpowered.  He's opening himself up, deliberately, to be overpowered. It wouldn't be surprising if his abilities to communicate are somewhat overpowered, too.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Arguing With A Sub - 6/1/2010 6:58:04 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I wouldn't have been upset over his difficulty in articulating his desires, and if anything, I might even view it as a positive, refreshing perspective. However, losing control and yelling on two different occasions is not an acceptable form of communication or conflict resolution, especially when the situation isn't a dire freak-out in the moment thing. IMHO, he should have attempted to discuss it more calmly and respectfully. If someone yelled at me like that, I probably would have put him in time-out, or told him that I would be very willing to listen to his concerns once he calmed down.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Arguing With A Sub - 6/1/2010 10:27:30 PM   
angeldmort


Posts: 54
Joined: 4/19/2009
Status: offline 		Bottom line - trust your gut. No one else was there to see the whole scenario the way you did, or everything that led up to it, or what came after. There's a music to language, spoken or unspoken, and we all recognize it on some level even if we can't specifically pick out a specific note or phrase that colored our view of the whole. If you feel you picked up on something, trust your instincts.
The main mistake I make over and over is to second guess myself - "Am I just being too sensitive? I am being too picky or too harsh? I'm newer to this than so and so.. maybe I should give them the benefit of the doubt/take their word for it/trust them over me because of whatever random thing I might be thinking or feeling at X moment that could be tainting my view" etc etc. I always worry that I'm misjudging someone when I think something unflattering about them, I often hear that I'm being paranoid or looking for problems, and I almost invariably end up hearing later how the situation repeated itself, often worse, with other people who let whatever it was slide by too long. After a while, I just get tired of being right about the bad stuff and of letting everyone, including myself, question it in the moment.

At some point, you have to accept that it doesn't matter if you can prove you were right to feel X way or not. You felt that way, and it would be in the back of your mind nagging at you if you did differently. At worst, on down the road you'll look back and say "I was wrong there for X reason" but until then, you followed your best judgement at the time.
Some relationships are just training wheels. It's harsh, but it's true. Each of you got some education out of it.
Maybe this was just life giving you an innoculation shot against the BIG bad stuff to come later.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 31
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