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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 8:38:49 AM   
realcoolhand


Posts: 261
Joined: 3/22/2009
Status: offline 		Why is language relevant if we can't shout obscenities at each other? Answer, it's relevant for plenty of other uses. If you disagree, then please consider this thread irrelevant. Unless we can focus on the topic at hand, we'll never gain any ground with regard to that particular topic, for the same reason that in school you focus on a different subject in each class, rather than sitting around all day talking about whatever comes up.

I see where you're coming from, I really do, and for the most part I agree, but sometimes you just have to focus. Can you agree with that?

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 8:43:57 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I don't think he's capable of agreeing with anybody who doesn't worship Alex Jones, sadly.

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 8:45:21 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		When I think of the above post. I think of hemorrhoids. 

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 9:11:22 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Good posts, rch.

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 9:12:28 AM   
realcoolhand


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Status: offline 		Thanks bud. I do appreciate that.

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 11:02:10 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Well yes, Paul was expecting to be set free by the imminent coming of the Kingdom, so why should it be a surprise he was contemptuous of the Torah? To be “set free” meant not only free from the oppression of the Romans and the Temple but also to be set free of physical ills and most importantly from death.



I largely agree with your last post, but not this comment. Paul was emphatically not contemptuous of the law.

"What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if It had not been for the law, I would not have known sin." Romans 7:7. And later, "Did that which is good [the law], then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, and I am of the flesh, sold under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not what I want, but do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do now want [sin], then I agree with the law, that it [what I want] is good." Romans 7:13-15.

And further: "I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members [body] another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members." Romans 7:21-22. However, "God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do" through Christ. Romans 8:3 et seq.

So you see, Paul loved the law, because he understood that the law is God's will for us, but did not set his store in the law, because no one but God is capable of keeping it. Rather, Paul recognized that it is only God's grace, in keeping the law on our behalf, that saves us.


Yes, you make a good point, rcl. Contemptuous was too strong a word to use and evidently a flawed opinion by me of Paul's regard for the Law. However, in Galatians 3 Paul puts the Law aside because, having faith, he no longer needs the teacher.

Going back to the OP then, I do not see the justification for the conclusion that Paul was in opposition to God.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 3:58:53 PM   
NefertariReborn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Christianity is not all about Jesus and the holy Magdalene. Paul is at least as important, if not more so. It is Paul who due to a major intervention by the Divine had a miracle happen to him on the road to Damascus. It was Paul who due to this miracle was changed. There is no evidence that Jesus experienced the same.

As for the last pagan god of the Jews: he was murdered many centuries before the birth of Jesus. At that moment all his edicts became null and void. In any case, if I recall corrrectly, he never commanded the Abrahamic Jews to circumcise their male offspring. He commanded Abraham to circumcise Isaac, one single individual, and that was it.

In fact, I consider Paul to be superior to this latter pagan God.


As My theology professor would often tell us, Jesus was not a Christian, he was Jew.  So in so far as the "religion" of Christianity goes, it's doctrine, it's spread etc.  Paul perhaps is  important.  Jesus never came to begin a religion  but rather to fulfill prophecy, redeem a people through sacrifice and offer salvation through that sacrifice. A conversion does not equal divinity, at least in My eyes, and so God trumps Paul when it is all said and done. 

Paul's letters to the .....(fill in the blank) ....are just that letters giving his opinion on topics that were being raised in the early church.  No different than Billy Graham writing a book  on issues of the present day church.  And you know what they say about opinions... you can be cited as a prime example.

< Message edited by NefertariReborn -- 5/30/2010 4:00:47 PM >

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 4:17:42 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Yes, you make a good point, rcl. Contemptuous was too strong a word to use and evidently a flawed opinion by me of Paul's regard for the Law. However, in Galatians 3 Paul puts the Law aside because, having faith, he no longer needs the teacher.


Are you saying in the above that Paul, because he has found his faith, now feels he is above the teacher?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 4:31:16 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NefertariReborn
A conversion does not equal divinity, at least in My eyes, and so God trumps Paul when it is all said and done. 

Paul's letters to the .....(fill in the blank) ....are just that letters giving his opinion on topics that were being raised in the early church.  No different than Billy Graham writing a book  on issues of the present day church.  And you know what they say about opinions... you can be cited as a prime example.

Paul was not merely converted. He was changed by Divine intervention. It is ridiculous to compare Paul to any mere ordinary human being like Billy Graham or yourself.

You say that the pagan god of the Jews trumps Paul. And I say that you are wrong.

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 7:18:23 PM   
realcoolhand


Posts: 261
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Status: offline 		I would be very cautious about trying to "split" the covenant, and force Paul onto one side or the other. Paul, as much as Jesus, viewed himself as a Jew, astounded by the fulfillment of prophecy. And with good cause. Paul was possibly the rising star of international, traditional judaism at the time of his conversion. He was born in Greek anatolia, but described himself as a "a Hebrew of Hebrews," Philippians 3:5, probably instigated, and certainly officiated, the stoning of Stephen, the first martyr of the Christian church, Acts 7:58, 8:1, and then set about the widespread persecution of the church in Palestine. Id. at 8:3.

But the "law" turned on two fundamental propositions. First that "The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." Deuteronomy 6:4-5. Second, "You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God." Leviticus 19:34. Jesus reaffirmed these with his affirmation of the Sadducee's summation of the "greatest commandment" as "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." Luke 10:17.

It was essential to the old covenant that it would be fulfilled with regard God's counterparties when, as God promised, "I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people." Jeremiah 31:33.

It was Paul's understanding that the sacrifice of Jesus worked a radical abstraction in of what had been a rigid ethical code, such that "the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2. As a result, he viewed the church itself as "a letter from Christ delivered by us [the Apostles], written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." II Corinthians 3:3.









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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 7:20:06 PM   
realcoolhand


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NefertariReborn

Paul's letters to the .....(fill in the blank) ....are just that letters giving his opinion on topics that were being raised in the early church.  No different than Billy Graham writing a book  on issues of the present day church. 


I agree, but there's still tremendous value in attending to what record we have of intelligent, faithful men and women struggling with their relationship to God and their own humanity.

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 7:21:44 PM   
realcoolhand


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Status: offline 		"Life is either a daring adventure or it is nothing at all."

I love that, Nefertari, and had not read it before. Thank you.

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 7:29:09 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Unless im mistaken.. and i could be... Isnt the Torah about the Old Testament, and Christianity is all about the new?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to realcoolhand)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 7:31:58 PM   
realcoolhand


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Unless im mistaken.. and i could be... Isnt the Torah about the Old Testament, and Christianity is all about the new?


Well, to Christians, it's all one in the same; the "new covenant" is only "new" in that the promises of the old are fulfilled in Christ. In fact, to many protestants, Paul is considered the "inspired exegete" because of his exegesis of the old testament in the context of the aforementioned fulfillment.

I won't speak for what traditional jews think of the new testament.

< Message edited by realcoolhand -- 5/30/2010 7:32:28 PM >

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 7:33:14 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		So, then it may be safe to consider the author of the site i was directed too is Jewish.

Now, how do we come to the decision that either is more right than the other?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to realcoolhand)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 7:51:08 PM   
realcoolhand


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Joined: 3/22/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Now, how do we come to the decision that either is more right than the other?


Personally, although I am a Christian, I don't. After all, "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen," Hebrews 11:1, and I because I have no proofs for my own faith I don't judge others' (unless it's silly, message for examples).

If you want to make a choice, consider the instrumental value of any particular faith. For me, I take great comfort in knowing that I do not bear the moral weight of my every decision, let alone the world, on my shoulders. I'm neither that smart nor that strong, and too acutely aware of of my own limitations to presume otherwise. But now I'm verging on an economic analysis of faith, and as I'm already two beers deep, I'd better pull back.

< Message edited by realcoolhand -- 5/30/2010 7:52:11 PM >

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 7:53:52 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		~chuckles

I dont follow any form of a formal religion. The teachings of Paul kept coming up in another discussion and i decided to share that discussion with a few over lunch. The web site was a product of that discussion.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to realcoolhand)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 7:54:42 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline 		From what I can tell, this comes from a Messianic Judaism site.  Folks should look at JewsforJudaism.org for a look at what Messianic Judaism's about.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

This is what im talking about. My post is about Paul and how his words seem to contradict the teaching of God. What does that have to do with Rome's law?

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 8:00:54 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand
Paul, as much as Jesus, viewed himself as a Jew, astounded by the fulfillment of prophecy.

I agree that the early Christians viewed themselves as Jews.

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand
But the "law" turned on two fundamental propositions. First that "The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." Deuteronomy 6:4-5.

That applied only to that particular pagan god for as long as he ruled.

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand
Second, "You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God." Leviticus 19:34.

That is good counsel only when it applies to decent people. Not when it applies to a people who mutilate the genitals of their male offspring and who murder their own female relatives. I bet no stranger traveling among such natives would appreciate to be treated like them. I also bet that neither did and do their male offspring and the female relatives they murdered and murder appreciate to be treated that way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand
It was essential to the old covenant that it would be fulfilled with regard God's counterparties when, as God promised, "I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people." Jeremiah 31:33.

he viewed the church itself as "a letter from Christ delivered by us [the Apostles], written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." II Corinthians 3:3.

The pagan God of the Jews failed miserably in that endeavor. According to Paul the Jews were only circumcised of penis, not of heart. Yet, also according to Paul, the non-Jews were circumcised of heart. So no: the Abrahamic Jews had not been the people of that pagan god for a long time before he was murdered.

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RE: Paul vs God - 5/30/2010 8:06:49 PM   
realcoolhand


Posts: 261
Joined: 3/22/2009
Status: offline 		Rule, you gots'ta chill the fuck out.

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Profile   Post #: 80
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