RE: Paul vs God (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: Paul vs God (5/31/2010 9:41:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

My authority is, primarily, the book of Acts. As you point out, judaic Christians--and I would add Christians in general--were not much mentioned by non-Christian sources for a half-century after the death of Christ. However, the book of Acts makes clear that the 11 remaining Apostles remained in Jerusalem during the early years of the Church, only gradually scattering out, and during the earliest years directed the Church from Jerusalem, even directing Paul in his travels. As, despite his loyalty, Paul's letters reflect a serious and persistent tension with his sponsors in Jerusalem, I doubt very much that intentionally overstated their influence or authority.

Now, if you had authority suggesting the the nascent Church was centered somewhere other than Jerusalem, that would be something.


Ah, I think it was the combination of sentences all in one paragraph. Especially when you said "Christianity was by no means dominant in Jerusalem," you left the impression they were of some importance to the daily comings and goings of the City. Maybe it was just my misperception. Adding the qualifyer "nascent" certainly changes the tone of your paragraph. Just wished to get clarification. Thanks.

As for Paul's tension with the band in Jerusalem, do you suppose it was cuz they weren't much interested is expanding the church outside of Judea and among the Gentiles? According to Acts those that stayed in Jerusalem were much put off by preaching to the uncircumcised. But Peter overcame their objections, didn't he? And Peter was running about in Asia Minor with some enthusiasm. So, it seems to me that with all this activity in Asia Minor the "nascent" church had pretty much left Jerusalem behind. So, on the authority of Acts (because there is none other) I speculate that the church and those who stayed behind in Jerusalem became irrelevent and lost authority. Perhaps, this was the source of the irritation.




realcoolhand -> RE: Paul vs God (5/31/2010 9:43:20 AM)

Although a scholar or two have speculated that the book may have been used in Paul's trial, that view is at odds with the universal acceptance that Luke was a physician, not a lawyer, and the majority view is that Luke wrote the Acts of the Apostles as a zealous convert eager to assemble a coherent narrative of the early church.




realcoolhand -> RE: Paul vs God (5/31/2010 9:46:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

[I]n the first decade after Christ Jerusalem was the center of christendom.


So I'm describing the early Church, which was centered in Jerusalem.

Edited to note that "decade" is in the singular, and to suggest that it shouldn't be read too literally, but rather as that period of years preceding the apostolic diaspora.




vincentML -> RE: Paul vs God (5/31/2010 12:34:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

[I]n the first decade after Christ Jerusalem was the center of christendom.


So I'm describing the early Church, which was centered in Jerusalem.

Edited to note that "decade" is in the singular, and to suggest that it shouldn't be read too literally, but rather as that period of years preceding the apostolic diaspora.


Well, wtf? If it was before the apostolic diaspora then the "early" church was the only church. There are no time lines in Acts. If it was after Peter and Paul were running about then the church in Jerusalem was losing authority and becoming inconsequential imo. I realize this may seem nit-picky but it is a helpful learning dialogue as I see it, and that is why I am picking at your understanding. Please, don't take it personal.




eyesopened -> RE: Paul vs God (5/31/2010 2:32:18 PM)

Uiversally accepted because Luke became the patron saint of physicians?  There is no historical record that tells exactly how Luke earned a living.  Yet in my reading Luke's gospel as well as Acts, there seems to be details that could not have been substantiated by eye-witness account.  But they would make for a great opening argument at a particularly interesting trial.

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/ffb/luke-portrait_bruce.pdf
In former times it was argued by more than one scholar that Luke’s narrative was written to provide Paul’s counsel for the defense with factual material to be used at his trial before Caesar; if this thesis can no longer be sustained in its earlier form, it may still be argued that a document prepared for this purpose served Luke as one of his sources for this part of his narrative. (Why could such a document not have been prepared by Luke himself?) The issue of the relief fund would in that case have been too delicate to be treated in detail; Luke, or the author of his source, judged that Paul’s reference to “alms and offerings” in his defense before Felix was as much as it was politic to say on this subject. If the “alms and offerings” are said to have been designed for Paul’s “nation”, this should not be dismissed as a suggestio falsi: Paul himself hints here and there in his letters that he envisaged the relief fund not only as a gift to the church of Jerusalem but also as a witness to the whole Jewish nation at the centre of its life.

  Why would it be impossible to believe that a learned man like Luke could not have been the author of such documents or that he would not act as an advocate for Paul?  Why would my view be necessarily be wrong?  I'm just saying, I try to have an understanding of the context of the writings.  I'm one of those people who do not see any part of the bible or any version of bibles to be the Word of God.  Nor to I believe anything was written as part of any evil conspiracy.  It's an interesting book and I have enjoyed reading it.




Rule -> RE: Paul vs God (5/31/2010 3:19:57 PM)

I am out of my depths here.

I do recall - if correctly? - that in the earliest universities in The Netherlands there were only four studies: Theology, Law, Medicine and (perhaps) arts. Some students studied more than one. Luke may have been one such universal student.




NefertariReborn -> RE: Paul vs God (5/31/2010 3:44:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Uiversally accepted because Luke became the patron saint of physicians?  There is no historical record that tells exactly how Luke earned a living.  Yet in my reading Luke's gospel as well as Acts, there seems to be details that could not have been substantiated by eye-witness account.  But they would make for a great opening argument at a particularly interesting trial.

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/ffb/luke-portrait_bruce.pdf
In former times it was argued by more than one scholar that Luke’s narrative was written to provide Paul’s counsel for the defense with factual material to be used at his trial before Caesar; if this thesis can no longer be sustained in its earlier form, it may still be argued that a document prepared for this purpose served Luke as one of his sources for this part of his narrative. (Why could such a document not have been prepared by Luke himself?) The issue of the relief fund would in that case have been too delicate to be treated in detail; Luke, or the author of his source, judged that Paul’s reference to “alms and offerings” in his defense before Felix was as much as it was politic to say on this subject. If the “alms and offerings” are said to have been designed for Paul’s “nation”, this should not be dismissed as a suggestio falsi: Paul himself hints here and there in his letters that he envisaged the relief fund not only as a gift to the church of Jerusalem but also as a witness to the whole Jewish nation at the centre of its life.

Why would it be impossible to believe that a learned man like Luke could not have been the author of such documents or that he would not act as an advocate for Paul?  Why would my view be necessarily be wrong?  I'm just saying, I try to have an understanding of the context of the writings.  I'm one of those people who do not see any part of the bible or any version of bibles to be the Word of God.  Nor to I believe anything was written as part of any evil conspiracy.  It's an interesting book and I have enjoyed reading it.

Paul refers to Luke in Col 4:14 as Luke, the beloved physician.  Perhaps the only Bible based evidence for Luke being a doctor.  As far as Acts being a legal document - In Acts 1:1-5, Luke writes:
The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when he was taken up to heaven, after he had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom he had chosen. To these he also presented himself alive after his suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the Kingdom of God. Gathering them together, he commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "which," he said, "you heard of from me for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Clearly, he intends Acts to be the second volume of a two volume work: volume one (Luke) describes Jesus' ministry and passion; volume two (Acts) describes events after Jesus' ascension and the giving of the Holy Spirit.




eyesopened -> RE: Paul vs God (5/31/2010 4:21:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I am out of my depths here.

I do recall - if correctly? - that in the earliest universities in The Netherlands there were only four studies: Theology, Law, Medicine and (perhaps) arts. Some students studied more than one. Luke may have been one such universal student.


At the time of Luke, there wasn't a specific job title as "lawyer" but rather a patronus was someone allowed to give the accused advice and to give a speech to the court on the accused's behalf.  The The patronus of course also meant a patron in our current understanding of the word.  Luke could have easily been both a physician and Paul's patron.  We assume that a successful tentmaker could afford his own travels but I highly doubt it.  A ministry of Paul's ambitious travel schedule would have required a good deal of money.  Luke was most likely at least one financial patron of Paul's and as such would have also been in the best position to be Paul's patronus in court.

In any event, it's not outside the realm of possibility that both Luke's gospel and the Acts were written in preparation for court.  Again, that some find inspiration for their personal spiritual path is not a bad thing.




realcoolhand -> RE: Paul vs God (5/31/2010 5:14:06 PM)

Thanks for the citation Nefertari.

While it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Luke was acting as Paul's attorney, it's also not the majority view. That majority view is substantiated not only by the well founded assumption that Luke was a physician rather than a rhetorician--the advocates of choice of the then newly-legalized legal profession--but also by the fact that the document does not seem to focus on Paul, or offer any real defense to the charge of treason he faced, but rather to offer a narrative history of the "dangerous" Christian movement, that would probably work to Paul's disadvantage. It also bears mention that Paul was certainly as capable an advocate as any, and after a lifetime of defending his faith and actions to hostile audiences probably did not need the counsel of an amateur.

As for Luke being a patron, I've got no particular opinion. I do not doubt that, as a missionary, Paul relied on patronage. I have no reason to believe that Luke was, or was not, among his patrons.




eyesopened -> RE: Paul vs God (6/1/2010 3:32:39 AM)

I guess I would have liked Luke to have cited his sources. *shrug*




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