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The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 4:49:44 PM   
SocratesNot


Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline 		General questions:

How does humiliation work?
Why does it work?
Does it really lower sub's self esteem?
If not, how can it be effective at all?
How much humiliation is too much?
Can it really make a submissive feel worthless?
If yes, is it a desirable effect? (I mean, is it desirable to make submissive feel worthless?)
If yes, why is this desirable?
Does humiliation have only short term effect (such as being humiliated during
the scene, and being aroused by it) or it has long term effects (such as permanently lowered self esteem)?
What are actually the desired effects of humiliation?
Is it just to make him aroused and to make him suffer at the time of its administration?
Or maybe to make him more submissive, by feeling evaluated as less valuable by the dominant?
Or maybe it deliberately tries to lower sub's self esteem permanently?

Questions for subs who have experienced humiliation?

Is it just a sexual turn-on?
Do you really feel humiliated?
Is it a positive or negative experience?
Do you actually believe the negative statements the dominant says about you during the humiliation scene?
For example, if the dominant says "You are an idiot" or "You are worthless", do you actually believe that you are an idiot or a worthless person
even if only at that little moment? Or maybe if you don't believe it, do you imagine it, and derive pleasure from such imagination?
If you don't really believe this, how can the humiliation be effective at all? I mean, if I am sure that I am not an idiot, and someone says to me that I am,
I will not feel humiliated, because my perception of myself is not changed, I can only feel angry or pissed off.
Does the effect of humiliation comes from actual change of your self perception, or you are just turned on by the fact that the Dominant enjoys humiliating
you and you must endure it.
For example, thinking like this "She'll say that I am an idiot, and I know that I am not, so my perception of myself will not be changed, but, inspite of this
I must endure such humiliation and not complain about this, and this puts me in position of helplessness, which is very hot and turns me on."

I would appreciate your honest responses.
Also, I think that humiliation is one of the most important topics in entire BDSM, because even if this is not administered directly (such as verbal humiliation),
it is subtly hinted at in quite a lot types of play. Also, it is one of the crucial psychological concepts of BDSM.



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Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle
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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 5:13:24 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Your final premise is wrong SN, many people do not engage in humiliation play or humiliation at all but still practice bdsm. Many acts you may find as humiliating or think center around that are possibly more in the realm of objectification, which for me as a submissive isn't humiliating at all because it is actually my goal and ultimate desire to be his toy/sub/slave/object/under his control etc. For me there are no emotional responses to that which are close to humiliation, in fact quite the opposite, it gives me pride and personal pleasure to be his toy etc.

What is humiliating varies widely from one person to another. I had a male sub that the simple act of kneeling was humiliating for him whereas hard core stuff wasn't. Odd? Yeah, but that's how he was or maybe there was some other trigger with that act that was personal to him.

Humiliation is different than degredation. You somewhat touch on both in my opinion.

To answer your questions for me personally as a submissive (about humiliation only):

Yes it is a sexual turn on, although sex isn't necessary.

Yes, I really feel humiliated or it wouldn't be humiliation

For me it is a positive experience and incredibly moving, bonding and fulfilling as well as erotic.

I've never had anyone call me an idiot or worthless in this context. I'm not one and that as a trigger would never work with me.

Humiliation acts off of personal triggers, finding them for each individual is the key to it being successful. Avoiding the triggers that truly would cause harsh feelings or that aren't transitory is also important and I identify them up front to the extent I know all of them. As has been pointed out to you before, the headspace you have in that moment isn't really logical, so yes you may believe something in the moment you know to be false. Someone I do not know could call me anything they wanted to with very little effect on me. Someone I know, trust, love and want to please very much is in a different situation. Verbal humiliation doesn't have as much effect on me alone, but yes, I really (to an extent) at that moment believe what he is saying/doing, although again, physical humiliation is more common and easier to get an effect from me so I may not be the best person to answer that. For me though, I really think the trigger is HIS perception of me, NOT mine.

I both am turned on by the fact he enjoys doing it and my self-perception changes, temporarily based on his. I think it's important to note that after the play it's very clear that he's proud of me, loves me, cares for me and certainly doesn't find the things of the moment to be true overall and no, it does not effect my self-esteem negatively, quite the contrary.











< Message edited by laurell3 -- 5/29/2010 5:21:26 PM >

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 5:15:08 PM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline 		To me personally, humiliation can be sexually stimulating but it doesn't have to be in order for it to be a positive experience.
There are positive and negative ways to humiliate me, and my reaction will vary based on what type of humiliation it is.

Positive humiliation to me is when the dominant takes a quality I don't like about myself, or I know others don't like about me, and confronts me with that quality while still maintaining an environment in which I know the dominant values and appreciates me for being me.

To use an easy example: like so many women I sometimes feel insecure about my weight. Thus if a dominant makes fun of and humiliates me somehow by using my insecurities about my weight against me, while at the same time still very clearly expressing -either by actions or words, during or after the humiliation- that they, the dominant, still care about me, and are still sexually attracted to me, then that humiliation experience is a positive one.
This is because the experience somehow translates in my head as: "this person knows the worse about me, and acknowledge that I as a human being am not perfect, they are distinctly aware of my imperfections, and YET while they know the worse about me still care about me as a person, and still find me attractive."
I thus feel safe with the dominant, because I feel that I can really be myself with them, and they really know and accept me for who and what I am. Thus, it would affect my self-esteem in a positive way while at the same time still causing distinct feelings of humiliation because I'm confronted with things I don't like about myself.

A negative humiliation experience would be if the dominant would humiliate me with something like my insecurities about my weight, and at the same time create a setting in which their actions or words made it clear that they disproved of me as a person, and were repulsed by me to the point of not wanting to be with me because of the thing they are humiliating me with. In that case I'd feel insecure and upset/angry/disappointed with myself, and it would affect my self-esteem in a negative way.


< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 5/29/2010 5:27:46 PM >

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Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 5:23:59 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

How does humiliation work?

For me it works by someone being able to and KNOWING they are able to, at will, reach into me and flip my inner switches that will make me humbled before them.

quote:

Why does it work?

No idea really. I think it's connected to being very confident, secure, smarter than most of the people around me most of the time, arrogant, and just really liking someone can and WILL yank me down at their whim.

quote:

Does it really lower sub's self esteem?

Not for me.

quote:

If not, how can it be effective at all?

Because the state of being humbled has no relationship with self esteem on its own.

quote:

How much humiliation is too much?

Depends on the person.

quote:

Can it really make a submissive feel worthless?

Now you're talking about degradation, not the same thing.

quote:


Does humiliation have only short term effect (such as being humiliated during
the scene, and being aroused by it) or it has long term effects (such as permanently lowered self esteem)?

For me it is a short term buzz, just like needle play for most masochists.

quote:

What are actually the desired effects of humiliation?

Feeling humbled before another.

quote:

Is it just to make him aroused and to make him suffer at the time of its administration?
Or maybe to make him more submissive, by feeling evaluated as less valuable by the dominant?
Or maybe it deliberately tries to lower sub's self esteem permanently?

For some person, for others no. Motivations are complex, non-universal, and even sometimes contradictory.

quote:

Is it just a sexual turn-on?

No in fact it's not sexual at all when I'm experiencing it.

quote:

Do you really feel humiliated?

Oh yes.

quote:

Is it a positive or negative experience?

As I employ it in my life, positive.

quote:

Do you actually believe the negative statements the dominant says about you during the humiliation scene?
For example, if the dominant says "You are an idiot" or "You are worthless", do you actually believe that you are an idiot or a worthless person
even if only at that little moment? Or maybe if you don't believe it, do you imagine it, and derive pleasure from such imagination?

Again, here you are discussing degradation, not humiliation.

quote:

Also, it is one of the crucial psychological concepts of BDSM.

Says who? Tons of people never go near humiliation or degradation in their relationships.

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 5:36:08 PM   
SocratesNot


Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline 		Excellent! From first three responses I concluded that the humiliation is mostly a positive experience, mostly based on the fact that you are loved and accepted DESPITE the fact that Dominant knows your bad sides and even humiliates you openly about them.
Also, feeling humbled before him or her, is important.
Finally it is important that your personal triggers and insecurities are touched by humiliation.
For example, if you know that you are not idiot or worthless, calling you such name will not have effect on you.
However, if you are insecure about your weight, calling you fat will be very humiliating.
And finally, there is a huge difference between humiliation and degradation.
While the first pokes fun about your weaknesses or bad sides, while still accepting you as a person, the second actually tries to make you feel worthless as a person and maybe even rejects you.

Of course, these are just tendencies. I believe for every person it's a little different, and no generalization can be universal.
But, still I am interested in some of these tendencies, even if I know that for every person mechanisms are different.

I will be happy to see more responses.




_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 5:42:10 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		I wouldn't say "bad sides" SN. Things you are more sensitive about possibly. However, humiliation isn't just verbal.



_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 5:46:35 PM   
SocratesNot


Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

I wouldn't say "bad sides" SN. Things you are more sensitive about possibly. However, humiliation isn't just verbal.


Sorry Laurell, my usage of term "bad sides" is a little ambiguous and maybe reflects my knowledge of English which will never be equal to the knowledge of native speakers.
So, I agree with you, I should better have said "things you are more sensitive about" instead of "bad sides"


_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 5:48:42 PM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I wouldn't say "bad sides" SN. Things you are more sensitive about possibly. However, humiliation isn't just verbal.




I agree with that, it's not so much "bad sides" as things that cause insecurity, doubt, shame.
Having somebody go out dressed in a ridiculous fashion (mismatched clothes, colors, wrong sizes) can cause distinct humiliation (depending on the person involved) but at the same time isn't playing on a "bad side" of the submissive, just on the fact that she feels uneasy/ashamed/ridiculous in public.

Edit: I see I was late and Socrates already got it.

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 5/29/2010 5:49:56 PM >

_____________________________


Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 5:52:22 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

you are loved and accepted DESPITE the fact that Dominant knows your bad sides and even humiliates you openly about them

No dear, I am loved for who I am MORE because of the bad sides and how openly I can share them.

Oh and I do humiliation play with tops and casual relationships as well, doesn't have to be in a relationship.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 5:57:00 PM   
SocratesNot


Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

No dear, I am loved for who I am MORE because of the bad sides and how openly I can share them.


This is also interesting thought. I can relate to this.
This is sometimes even like "being proud of being ________ (insert whatever negative thing you can think of)"
Probably not exactly proud, but comfortable with sharing them.


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Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 6:37:00 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I believe humiliation will only work if one party desires it. The why I'm sure is complicated and varies between people. If you practice humiliation on someone that is not receptive they will leave you....plain and simple.

If a person desires it, for what ever reason, then it fills a need...why worry about the why...many don't even know themselves...I don't.

Butch

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 8:54:17 PM   
Blankpain


Posts: 127
Joined: 5/20/2010
Status: offline 		It works best when its expected least!

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 11:34:12 PM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline



quote:

How does humiliation work?

It reinforces our 'order' - he is dominant, I am submissive. He can do anything he wants, and it's my duty (and joy) to take it.

quote:

Why does it work?

Again, for me it's about reinforcing the difference in our own personal statuses.

quote:

Does it really lower sub's self esteem?

Absolutely not!

quote:

If not, how can it be effective at all?

Because the things that we do are not personal attacks. He will NEVER use any of my fears/insecurities against me, but he will insist I do things that others would find humiliating. And yet at the time they are not so much humiliation as tasks I am willing to perform to make him happy.

quote:

How much humiliation is too much?

When it gets too personal. Call me a slut and that's ok. Tell me I'm fat/old/ugly and everything stops, right now.

quote:

Can it really make a submissive feel worthless?

Only if that's the aim of both parties, and the dominant gets really in-deep and personal.

quote:


Does humiliation have only short term effect (such as being humiliated during
the scene, and being aroused by it) or it has long term effects (such as permanently lowered self esteem)?

No long term issues at all. It's a play activity and does not affect my self esteem.

quote:

What are actually the desired effects of humiliation?

To feel owned, humbled, of a lower status, to truly reinforce my chosen place in the relationship.

quote:

Is it just to make him aroused and to make him suffer at the time of its administration?
Or maybe to make him more submissive, by feeling evaluated as less valuable by the dominant?
Or maybe it deliberately tries to lower sub's self esteem permanently?

Depends on the relationship. For me, it makes me aroused, but not so much on the suffering. Humiliation does not make me feel less valuable - I still have high value within the relationship by virtue of my submission, just as he has high value by virtue of his dominance. We are flip sides to the same coin.

quote:

Is it just a sexual turn-on?

In a way, yes. It makes me feel very submissive, which makes anything that follows all the more intense.

quote:

Do you really feel humiliated?

Hmmmm...depends what is happening. Mostly I don't feel humiliated, just subservient. But as I'm naturally NOT subservient, this is usually the desired outcome.

quote:

Is it a positive or negative experience?

Absolutely positive. If it was negative it would be on my list of limits.

quote:

Do you actually believe the negative statements the dominant says about you during the humiliation scene?
For example, if the dominant says "You are an idiot" or "You are worthless", do you actually believe that you are an idiot or a worthless person
even if only at that little moment? Or maybe if you don't believe it, do you imagine it, and derive pleasure from such imagination?

No, because that's not the type of humiliation I would take part in.

quote:

Also, it is one of the crucial psychological concepts of BDSM.

No it isn't. There are people with D/s or M/s relationships who thrive on nothing more 'bdsm' than giving and receiving service. There are others who only do pain play. The spectrum is wide, and humiliation is only a tiny part of that spectrum. If I was never to receive humiliation again, would it be a problem for me? Maybe, because I enjoy it. But it's not THE most important part of my relationships, and it's not something I need, it's just an added bonus.

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 11:36:06 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Sn since you're not running around telling people not to engage in degredation, I should tell you, there's nothing wrong with it either as long as both parties know what they are into and are prepared to deal it with appropriately.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/29/2010 11:36:55 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		He is telling people that on a different thread.

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/30/2010 12:22:33 AM   
jbcurious


Posts: 717
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		The way you explain it is also the manner in which it works for me. A previous poster said something about laughing at or making a joke re: being over weight...this would shut me down, it is an issue I have difficulty with.

On the other hand it is an area I can feel humiliation but have a positive effect from. Because I am so self consious about my body the simple act of having to show myself to him is very humiliating for me. At that stage it can go one of two ways...the humiliation will be taken further with negative comments or jokes which would shut me down or he can claim me and those parts about myself that embarrass me, as his. When he says "these thighs are mine, I will look at them when I choose, you don't have the right to feel anything about them because they belong to me... "

The act of what I've had to do is still humiliating... the acceptance and knowing I'm submitting to the degree he requires turns it into a positive experience. I can be made to humiliate myself...it's positive if it's done because he is claiming me, making me more his...devastating if used to hurt me.

I don't know if I'm explaining this right... haven't had my coffee and my thoughts aren't very cohesive yet....

< Message edited by jbcurious -- 5/30/2010 12:30:04 AM >

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/30/2010 12:38:39 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline 		*adores jb*


You hit the nail on the head exactly!

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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/30/2010 1:48:52 AM   
kadine


Posts: 14
Joined: 8/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Is it just a sexual turn-on?
Do you really feel humiliated?
Is it a positive or negative experience?
Do you actually believe the negative statements the dominant says about you during the humiliation scene?


Yes, it is a sexual turn on (for me) IF:

  The Dominant *takes me back* from it.
I have a very suggestible  mind. I can fall easily into almost anywhere I'm taken to, and yes, at the time of that mindphuck, I really AM that object, or what-have-you, until I'm brought back.
I've experienced both good  and bad humiliations, and I've discovered that it's not the humiliation itself that can be "bad" enough that I suffer later, it's how the dominant brings me back, if at all. Two humiliations of the same type, one was a very positive one and the other, extremely negative. The only difference between the two were that one dominant brought me back down with praise and reassurance that I was still loved, cherished, a good girl, etc.; and the other, KEPT me in that state, never offering those words, so I ended up feeling... less, for lack of a better word, in his eyes.
  If you can sink me into a humiliation, and I have the trust in you that I'll still be 'loved' while I'm there, and when I'm brought back, there isn't anywhere I won't go for you. :)


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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/30/2010 5:26:33 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Redefine humiliation as erotic embarrassment and you might be able to understand how it usually works. Not designed normally to lower self esteem but to get someone to admit to desires they have trouble talking about.

For those who play with self esteem type humiliation, it isn't designed to lower it but to strengthen it. If you can accept your least lovable characteristics with someone who has the most power to hurt you by rejecting you for sharing those thoughts, then you discover that your self esteem in the wider world is stronger. After all, if the one person whose rejection would shatter you accepts you, then nothing anyone of less importance can say to you can hurt you.

Once again, sn, you're starting from a set viewpoint which is wrong. Starting with a closed mind. Your assumptions are totally off.


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RE: The mechanism of humiliation - 5/30/2010 5:31:37 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
This
quote:

The act of what I've had to do is still humiliating... the acceptance and knowing I'm submitting to the degree he requires turns it into a positive experience.


and this from kadine

quote:

The only difference between the two were that one dominant brought me back down with praise and reassurance that I was still loved, cherished, a good girl,



These two women have described perfectly what makes it work well for me also.
It is after that is crucial.
The dominant is proud of me for demonstrating how 'low will I go” for him and tells me that in words and actions.. After seeing me so very humbled, the real me, he physically or metaphorically raises me back up. He looks at me in the same way he did before and his smile reaches his eyes.

As for long term effects on my self esteem, mine is pretty healthy. If someone failed to do what I described above, then he has a problem, not me. I would stand up on my own and walk away on my own. The only thing I would be kicking myself about would be that I misjudged his character.

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