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Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 10:46:57 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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The following was inspired by SimplyMichael's thread “Slavery is BS”. What I am trying to achieve with this thread is to balance that by questioning the reality of dominance or mastery.

Submission is not a passive state. I had to submit to my need/desire to submit before I could allow another to have authority over me. I learned it was necessary be pro-active in order to cede my will. Even those who have ascertained that they simply 'are' submissive to their core, I believe, actively embrace that core in order to be happy.
As a submissive I have had to overcome aspects of myself which,at first, hindered my ability to submit to another. People can, and do, change. I am living proof of that.
To give is its own reward. Submission removed the 'score card' mentality that troubled many of my past relationships. To win a point is no longer important to me; I have stopped thinking in terms of a balance sheet, because the account will always be uneven. What matters is that we, together, are a winning team. It is trite, but accurate, that the sum is greater than all its parts. (“parts” being the people involved and the “sum” is the relationship.)
I think most can agree that honesty is vital. An impediment, however, is a lack of self honesty. It took some time to realize that being true to who and what I am, a brutal self-assessment, was required before I could be completely honest to another.
Pride, the wrong kind of pride, can be one more stumbling block. It was necessary for me to gain a different perspective on what made me proud, and in reverse, what made me feel embarrassed. I am still working on mastering my pride, not by swallowing it, but by changing the context. I have to alter my perspective of personal pride and turn it into a sense of satisfaction that I am able to please my dominant partner.
In order to please, I must gain knowledge or improve it, hone my talents or learn new ones, look at challenges as an opportunity rather than something to escape, accept my limitations and not allow them to defeat me.
Only when I am master of myself does it become possible for another to Master me.

(I realize I have used the word 'must' and have implied the word 'should' but that is how I see it only for myself.)

My questions to the forum::
Is submission an achievement or an acquiescence or a bit of both, for you?
Is it impertinent (hubris?) or realistic to believe that there is no dominance or mastery unless the submissive does a lot of self-work?

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 11:22:25 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize


My questions to the forum::
Is submission an achievement or an acquiescence or a bit of both, for you?
Is it impertinent (hubris?) or realistic to believe that there is no dominance or mastery unless the submissive does a lot of self-work?


This is one of those questions that confuses me, along with that whole 'a relationship has to be a lot of work for it to succeed'.

It isn't work for me. The only self-work I needed to do, was to understand what I was seeking so that I wouldn't seeking in the wrong places. And that seems to go for any sort of relationship, being self-aware and understanding ones goal.

Submission is not an achievement for me but sometimes it is a type of acquiesence in that I try and make him my total priority. But.. I'd do that in any relationship because that is how I happen to do it.

_____________________________


~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 12:35:26 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		wow! - youve put that all so well!,

ive certainly been on a long journey of self mastery where my submissive self struggled constantly against incomprehension much of the time. 

how was i to trust that much
how was i to stop holding back
pride - oh boy, i still have that, in fact my siggy line used to be a quote from Prince 'even doves have pride'
how was i ever to expose myself emotionally, physically and mentally
how was i ever going to hand myself over to another human being and not want to snatch some of myself back
how was i to learn to not say 'no'
how was i to stop analyzing every little thing

the list is endless to be honest.  all of it, each thing was a process of inner searching, determination to get there.  every time i got something wrong i really had to look at why, question it and turn it around.

i think that acquiescence has to be there, if only in part, at least a willingness to find a way and push through the barriers that personality, life and experience has put there.  i have always been me and i have always wanted this but wanting it and it being what you are is only a part of the jigsaw (least it was so for me) - i had to learn how to let go, to trust, to hand it all over, to shut my mouth, to let it all go and once i did, once i had mastered my own set of barriers it all fell into place.

sometimes it is a matter of mastering myself and it certainly was at the start.  in fact my early efforts were all about submitting myself to submission, not to the man, it felt safer and was that stepping stone to finally learning to trust and let myself go. 

in there was learning to take responsibiity for myself and for the decisions i made, realising that i had exactly as much control as i wanted/needed before i finally gave myself fully, learning what type of man i could submit to and why.  when i worked all of that out i found id built myself a platform from which to leap in any of a variety of directions and feel safe.  then, enter the Dominant, the man that takes all of this from me and directs me according to where he chooses - instead of that being a slightly scary, awesome thing, it became the natural progression from where i was and i found that all of my early resistance and self made barriers had gone.

i think people think that a Dominant will come along and fix you, make you the submissive youve always wanted/believed/hoped you were and to some extent thats true, but for me, i had to put alot of work in for my door to be open wide enough for the man to walk in, take my hand and lead me away.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 12:40:30 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
Is submission an achievement or an acquiescence or a bit of both, for you?
Is it impertinent (hubris?) or realistic to believe that there is no dominance or mastery unless the submissive does a lot of self-work?

IT... both sides of IT, is a journey that Carol and I are taking together. It is achievement, acquiescence, hard work, struggle, happiness, joy, despair, tears, and most importantly, love. We are exploring US. That exploration did not begin at D/s or M/s. It won't end there. It is our life together. On one hand, it is nothing special, it is just two people muddling their way through life as best as they know how. On the other hand, it is magical. It is what happens when two people realize that all those dearly held concept about "self" are just so much useless baggage weighing down the boat and they can be tossed overboard.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 1:38:51 PM   
reynardfox


Posts: 417
Joined: 9/8/2009
Status: offline 		The sound of one hand clapping is deafening around here.
If I thought any of the people I was playing with regarded it as some kind of therapy or inner journey I would tell them that they were nuts. This is about perverse sex, the satisfaction of physical desire, however extreme.
My fun is mostly slap and tickle and with much laughter, including some at  myself.
It's not about the justification of anyone's existence. It's about fun.
The most transitory, fleetingly exquisite state of mind.
I'm having fun and having more of it than I ever dreamed possible.
I don't think you would know it if it bit you.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 1:58:37 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Is submission an achievement or an acquiescence or a bit of both, for you?

Presuming you're discussing submission in a Ds sense, it is both. Acceptance of who I am and what makes me happy requires a sense of surrender and acceptable of being. However, the creation of who I am and who I want to be become within my submission is definitely an achievement I work for.

quote:

Is it impertinent (hubris?) or realistic to believe that there is no dominance or mastery unless the submissive does a lot of self-work?

Yes, very much so.


_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to reynardfox)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 2:05:03 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: reynardfox

The sound of one hand clapping is deafening around here.
If I thought any of the people I was playing with regarded it as some kind of therapy or inner journey I would tell them that they were nuts. This is about perverse sex, the satisfaction of physical desire, however extreme.
My fun is mostly slap and tickle and with much laughter, including some at  myself.
It's not about the justification of anyone's existence. It's about fun.
The most transitory, fleetingly exquisite state of mind.
I'm having fun and having more of it than I ever dreamed possible.
I don't think you would know it if it bit you.


allow me to politely point out that we arent talking about slap and tickle here - submission for some is a journey of sorts and along the way ive had a great deal of fun and im having plenty of it now.

just because you dont 'get' what this thread is all about doesnt justify you giving us the bird and coming off as offensive.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to reynardfox)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 3:44:41 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

My questions to the forum::
Is submission an achievement or an acquiescence or a bit of both, for you?
Is it impertinent (hubris?) or realistic to believe that there is no dominance or mastery unless the submissive does a lot of self-work?


That is the difference between a co-dependant doormat and a strong self aware person who chooses submission from strength, not weakness.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 3:54:36 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

quote:

ORIGINAL: reynardfox

The sound of one hand clapping is deafening around here.
If I thought any of the people I was playing with regarded it as some kind of therapy or inner journey I would tell them that they were nuts. This is about perverse sex, the satisfaction of physical desire, however extreme.
My fun is mostly slap and tickle and with much laughter, including some at  myself.
It's not about the justification of anyone's existence. It's about fun.
The most transitory, fleetingly exquisite state of mind.
I'm having fun and having more of it than I ever dreamed possible.
I don't think you would know it if it bit you.


allow me to politely point out that we arent talking about slap and tickle here - submission for some is a journey of sorts and along the way ive had a great deal of fun and im having plenty of it now.

just because you dont 'get' what this thread is all about doesnt justify you giving us the bird and coming off as offensive.


wow, yeah I agree with lally depite the fact that she is a bratty cake-stealing instigator of coconut horrors.

Catize's posts have always stuck me as incredibly realistic, intelligent and well thought out. People do this for different reasons, it is very much possible to have fun, enjoy the exquisite sex and have a d/s dynamic that includes the "journey" that lally refers to.

OP in response to your post questions, it is a bit of both for me and I completely agree that self-reflection and strength are a necessity for me personally in order to engage in a d/s dynamic. For me, to do anything else would be putting myself and someone else in a situation to fail and like you, it's been a long process for me to see that and I am not done yet. One of the beautiful things about this journey for me is that it tends to give me moment of unmasked observation and unique opportunities to really see myself in ways I never fully realized.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 3:55:10 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		Camille,
So you embraced your true nature from the beginning, and that is a wonderful thing.
For some of us, though, some aspects of submitting to another person create a knee-jerk resistance which needs to be overcome if we are to have what we want in a D/s relationship.
And I use the word work for lack of a better one; it is not tedious work but rewarding to re-frame certain thoughts. Rewarding to look at those thoughts from a different perspective, so that I can reach my goal of accepting another's authority.
Thanks for your comment and I hope this clarified it a bit for you.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 3:58:03 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		Lally,
Thank you for your response. We could be related! LOL


And this is simply beautifully written.
quote:

i think people think that a Dominant will come along and fix you, make you the submissive youve always wanted/believed/hoped you were and to some extent thats true, but for me, i had to put alot of work in for my door to be open wide enough for the man to walk in, take my hand and lead me away.


_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 4:02:36 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
Leadership,
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, I agree IT takes care and succor from both sides!
I believe any relationship that is vibrant and happy is indeed, something very special. Life is rough enough, it is joyous when you realize that the tossed baggage won't be missed a bit because it isn't dragging us down anymore!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 4:04:30 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I don't think you would know it if it bit you.



Reynardfox,
LOL I do too enjoy getting bitten! So there!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to reynardfox)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 4:08:24 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

Is it impertinent (hubris?) or realistic to believe that there is no dominance or mastery unless the submissive does a lot of self-work?
Yes, very much so.



Is that hedging, or pragmatic? I'm never sure with you!
Thanks, LA, and may I add my 'welcome back!' here.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 4:16:30 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		Laurell3,

Awww! Thank-you!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 4:23:41 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:


That is the difference between a co-dependant doormat and a strong self aware person who chooses submission from strength, not weakness.



Thanks, SimplyMichael, for visiting my thread. But you see, sometimes I view my submission to be weakened by what I have earlier referred to as my knee-jerk resistance. Luckily the dominant men in my life have been patient with me, but I can appreciate where some dominants would find the 'doormat' quite restful and more to their liking.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 4:26:07 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		catize,

quote:

Is submission an achievement or an acquiescence or a bit of both, for you?


In short I had to gain to lose.

quote:

Is it impertinent (hubris?) or realistic to believe that there is no dominance or mastery unless the submissive does a lot of self-work?


My kneel is exponentially better due to all the work I did before this ever begun. I would never be where I am without it. If anything it makes the surrender that much easier and a lot less scarier as well.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 5:22:37 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:


That is the difference between a co-dependant doormat and a strong self aware person who chooses submission from strength, not weakness.



Thanks, SimplyMichael, for visiting my thread. But you see, sometimes I view my submission to be weakened by what I have earlier referred to as my knee-jerk resistance. Luckily the dominant men in my life have been patient with me, but I can appreciate where some dominants would find the 'doormat' quite restful and more to their liking.


You know the work you have to do to "be" submissive, I am curious what work to you see as the dominants responsibility to create a relationship that brings forth your desire to be submissive?

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 5:50:48 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
quote:

quote:
Is it impertinent (hubris?) or realistic to believe that there is no dominance or mastery unless the submissive does a lot of self-work?
Yes, very much so.

Is that hedging, or pragmatic? I'm never sure with you!
Thanks, LA, and may I add my 'welcome back!' here.


Just straight up truth. I've known too many subs who decide to break the rules because they are bored, subs who insult doms because they don't give them enough orgasms on demand, subs who adore a dom for the first six months and then spend the rest of their lives bashing them to anyone who will listen to leave responsibility for defining domination in THEIR hands.

My dominance over another is independent of the submissives own work. Hopefully one inspires the other and viceversa, but it's not an inherent ot absolute cause/effect dynamic.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Submissive as Master - 5/30/2010 5:53:08 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I am curious what work to you see as the dominants responsibility to create a relationship that brings forth your desire to be submissive?

In my case, that largely comes down to strutting around a lot and barking out commands.

Well, there may be some details about love, respect, honor, and whatnot that come into play somewhere also.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 20
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