RE: D/s Weight Watchers (Full Version)

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domiguy -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/30/2010 10:38:46 PM)

Get on your bikes and ride!!!!



domiguy -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/30/2010 10:46:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Come on, domi.  UR wrote one of the best Fat Thread posts ever, and you know it.

This relates to the fundamental differences between men and women in humiliation play.  Some men enjoy hearing, "You're so ugly, not worthy ever to touch me, tiny penis, fat slob."  99.9% of women hard limit body-related humiliation-speak.  It's a big kink gender-difference.



But 99.9% of men with their shit together ain't gonna wait around for some gal to work herself into "fuckable."



sunshinemiss -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 1:27:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BMW1969

I am looking for a Healthier and better condition, as well as managing health better.
To which I am in need of that myself.




I was not kidding when I said do a search. There is a very long thread over in Polls and Other Random Stupidity... it's up to... what 80 pages now? It's called the CM Biggest Loser Thread or something like that.



UniqueRaven -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 5:52:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Come on, domi.  UR wrote one of the best Fat Thread posts ever, and you know it.

This relates to the fundamental differences between men and women in humiliation play.  Some men enjoy hearing, "You're so ugly, not worthy ever to touch me, tiny penis, fat slob."  99.9% of women hard limit body-related humiliation-speak.  It's a big kink gender-difference.



But 99.9% of men with their shit together ain't gonna wait around for some gal to work herself into "fuckable."


It depends.  If she's a fabulous sub and only has 20 pounds to lose or so, or if it is a matter of her just toning up some, i've seen many Masters take on a girl and work with her to achieve that goal - and have taken great pride in helping her get there.

i do agree that most won't take on someone that has an extreme amount of weight to lose, if they're not into BBW to start with - i mean if she's 100 pounds over "fuckable" then probably she's got other issues as well as just plain being unattractive to him, and most men aren't interested in the time and effort.

"Fuckable" is always a subjective word.  [;)]



porcelaine -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 6:14:03 AM)

UniqueRaven,

quote:

It depends.  If she's a fabulous sub and only has 20 pounds to lose or so, or if it is a matter of her just toning up some, i've seen many Masters take on a girl and work with her to achieve that goal - and have taken great pride in helping her get there.


I agree.

quote:

i do agree that most won't take on someone that has an extreme amount of weight to lose, if they're not into BBW to start with - i mean if she's 100 pounds over "fuckable" then probably she's got other issues as well as just plain being unattractive to him, and most men aren't interested in the time and effort.


I've seen it. How it plays out is another thing altogether. We recently had a thread on Fetlife about this and the responses were mixed. I really didn't say what I should have because it probably wouldn't have come off as well. But I think it should be said nonetheless.

People need to be honest with themselves. If the man wants the girl and she has poundage he has to accept that going in. I'm of the belief that he can help her if she's willing to do the work and committed to change on her own. However, he must recognize what is and be keenly aware that it may change and it may not. I'd definitely suggest he questions if he could remain if it didn't.

On the flip side, I'm pretty tired of reading whiny posts from women that put themselves in this situation. He didn't make you overweight. That's something you contributed to on your own. The only force involved is your decision to become attached to someone that isn't pleased with your physical appearance. If she wants blanket acceptance she should pair with someone that will accept her as is even if the packaging never changes.

~porcelaine



UniqueRaven -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 6:34:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I've seen it. How it plays out is another thing altogether. We recently had a thread on Fetlife about this and the responses were mixed. I really didn't say what I should have because it probably wouldn't have come off as well. But I think it should be said nonetheless.

People need to be honest with themselves. If the man wants the girl and she has poundage he has to accept that going in. I'm of the belief that he can help her if she's willing to do the work and committed to change on her own. However, he must recognize what is and be keenly aware that it may change and it may not. I'd definitely suggest he questions if he could remain if it didn't.

On the flip side, I'm pretty tired of reading whiny posts from women that put themselves in this situation. He didn't make you overweight. That's something you contributed to on your own. The only force involved is your decision to become attached to someone that isn't pleased with your physical appearance. If she wants blanket acceptance she should pair with someone that will accept her as is even if the packaging never changes.


i agree.  It is that being fundamentally authentic with yourself that i think both parties need to have going in (and continuing in) a D/s relationship. 

There is that whole phenomenon of women seeking to submit to a Dom to "fix" her - which as i've said in other posts, ultimately the only person that can fix you is yourself - he may be able to help and support, but even as a sub or slave you have to do the internal work to "get there."

And weight loss in itself creates issues - if she's very successful, sometimes her desire to go out and experience her new body splits up the dynamic, or he becomes jealous, or insecure, or so on and so on and so on.   This is why i preach self-acceptance and self-awareness so much before going into a D/s dynamic.  Part of it is the yoga teacher in me too, of course.  [;)]

i'm not perfect, i'm curvy, and i'll always be working on my tummy, but i know my body, i love it, and most men do too - even though i'm not everyone's cuppa tea.  But that's ok, i'm happy as me and i know who i am and what i have to offer to any potential future Owner.  It's the only way to be, in my book.  And if he accepts me exactly as i am, right now, then everything else is gravy.  [:)]




barelynangel -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 6:34:53 AM)

My former Master was the one who set up the environment and atmosphere wherein he controlled pretty much my weight and in shapeness so to speak.  He was the one who determined when i needed to lose weight or get in better shape and if he felt it was necessary he changed the environment and atmosphere within which he kept me.  

I think most men not only don't want to do such a thing, but many don't know how and they don't know how to do it for themselves either.  So they do not want to put in the work, which is fine -- can't blame them.  But there are some men who do enjoy taking a piece of clay and molding it and some men do it damn well.

All in all, some men are willing to put in the work to take women they seewith potential and make them fuckable lol and some men want a woman to already be fuckable.

Some women thrive under the controlling nature within this regard and some don't.

angel



porcelaine -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 6:56:02 AM)

UniqueRaven,

quote:

There is that whole phenomenon of women seeking to submit to a Dom to "fix" her - which as i've said in other posts, ultimately the only person that can fix you is yourself - he may be able to help and support, but even as a sub or slave you have to do the internal work to "get there."


I try to keep an open mind about that. I don't think everyone comes to the kneel for the same reasons, nor do I think our submission has the same motivators. We all have areas that require work. Some of us are in better condition than others. But that's really a fallacy. Everyone has issues. A fit girl with a messed up mind is no better than a overweight one that's sane. It comes down to what the other party is willing to deal with.

quote:

And weight loss in itself creates issues - if she's very successful, sometimes her desire to go out and experience her new body splits up the dynamic, or he becomes jealous, or insecure, or so on and so on and so on.


Weight isn't the culprit. The real villain in that scenario is change and how each person responds to what's occurred. Relationships aren't static and there's always an element of risk involved. Of course we're addressing a physical change - possibly dramatic - that could deepen a bond or topple it altogether. Its demise is not due to the weight loss, but other factors that already existed that the change has merely exposed.

Either he accepts the change and cherishes her beauty, or he's beset with fear because the safety net of weight has been removed, and he feels his grip on her is slipping or will do so. As for her, she remains committed and delights in his appreciation for the changes and basks in them as well. Or she elects to explore other options because the barriers to doing so are no longer there. I'd wager she wasn't fully invested within or he's a schmuck and she can finally see it.

quote:

i'm not perfect, i'm curvy, and i'll always be working on my tummy, but i know my body, i love it, and most men do too - even though i'm not everyone's cuppa tea.  But that's ok, i'm happy as me and i know who i am and what i have to offer to any potential future Owner.  It's the only way to be, in my book.  And if he accepts me exactly as i am, right now, then everything else is gravy.  [:)]


There's a whole level of empowerment that comes when you can accept things as they are. Improvements are wonderful and there's little reason to stop trying, but you've gotta appreciate the merchandise as it transforms, not afterward. If he can love me as I am while seeing me as I can be we'll get along swimmingly.

~porcelaine



UniqueRaven -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 7:00:06 AM)

Totally agree with all your points, porcelaine.  i tend to be a bit more "tough love" (especially on myself) but we are on the same page.  [:)]



barelynangel -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 7:18:22 AM)

I think you many people miss a big concept that works for people -- it is having someone fix them.  I mean PT make a lot of money because their services are in demand - people PAY to have other people help them achieve goals, to have others set up what they should do and how they should do it. Now its all fine and dandy that being your own master with regard to a situation like this works for you, but MOST people in our country look to have other people set up what they should do and be accountible to them-- they PAY for the service.  Weight loss books make millions due to telling people how to do something, and there are support groups out there that people pay for or not to keep them accountible.

I don't get why when it comes to M/s or D/s this concept that seems to work quite well outside of M/s and D/s suddenly becomes not a good thing within M/s or D/s.  All it is is taking what people use outside the M/s and D/s and focusing it within a relationship wherein the Master who pretty much controls the life of the two people involved in that relationship becomes the concept of PT or the books and the support group and accountibility factor.

Yes weight is an issue most people deal with, but its no different from M/s and/or D/s than what people seek outside same with regard to finding something to fix what they don't like because they may either not have the knowledge or they are incapable of putting that knowledge into practice.  I mean what's wrong with using a Master to achieve this concept because HE is capable based upon your relationship in setting the environment and atmosphere wherein you thrive and reach his standards and expectations one subject of which is your body image and looks.

It always confuses me when people want to act like somehow there are things that its wrong to have under the control of the Man and weight and how a woman looks tends to be what people get their knickers in a twist about and go around saying oh THIS she should control on her own.  Why? Because its not politically correct for a guy to indicate displeasure at his slave's looks and decides to change them?  I just don't get why people want to leave some things out of the concept of M/s and D/s especially when its a concept people all over the world is looking for help with.

Despite what people want to sanctimoniously speak about with regard to D/s many people do seek others controling their lives because many times they suck at doing it themselves and realize they live better, thrive better and exist better under the control of others.  They don't NEED to prove anything to themselves except admit what benefits them and yes, for many a person who can fix or mold them into something better is a GOOD thing when they find same for that person.  Its not a BAD thing, its not some prize when you can do it yourself.  That is why there are different types of people in the world -- some are followers and thrive under the expectations and standards of others, and some don't.  Neither way is better or worse.
angel



porcelaine -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 7:26:37 AM)

barelynangel,

quote:

I think most men not only don't want to do such a thing, but many don't know how and they don't know how to do it for themselves either.  So they do not want to put in the work, which is fine -- can't blame them.  But there are some men who do enjoy taking a piece of clay and molding it and some men do it damn well.


I agree. But it isn't as cut and dried as you've expressed. There's a ton of factors that go into why a person weighs what they do, why that condition persists, what they've done - if anything - to change it, maintenance (yes/no), physical activity, limitations, and so on. If a man asked my opinion in the matter I would strongly advise he knew all of that before he took her on.

Although I don't deny the impact the right guide can have on reshaping a girl - particularly in the physical sense - the misconception that it's dependent on his influence is difficult for me to accept. She's not helpless. There are a lot of women waiting for some magical person to swoop down and clean up their mess. While aesthetics is a definite part of the decision making process, it is largely influenced by the magnitude of change and the effort required to bring it to fruition and guarantee its continuance. Real success is determined by her ability to maintain a stable weight without intentional direction or micromanagement.

quote:

Some women thrive under the controlling nature within this regard and some don't.


I believe many people have convinced themselves they'd enjoy it and have come to learn that wasn't the case. The experience left them scarred, disenchanted, angry, skewed (regarding weight management by the dominant), and vehemently unwilling to do it again. In my opinion the numbers that would thrive and achieve long term success are markedly smaller.

~porcelaine



UniqueRaven -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 7:27:37 AM)

i'm a 200+ hour certified yoga teacher.  People pay me to help "fix" them.  And yes, i often serve as teacher, mentor, therapist, and friend in the process.

However no matter how much anyone has ever paid me (and in yoga therapy it's a pretty big number - think PT rates), i have never been able to "fix" someone that didn't already want to "fix" themselves on a fundamental level - and any progress that that person made was on his/her own as a result.  Yes, i am able to guide and encourage and push and provide resources, but if the individual isn't engaged with the process of being "fixed," then it doesn't happen.

This is the difference i see.  There is nothing wrong with a Master wanting to "fix" his slave's weight and body issues - and nothing wrong with her seeking him out for that reason.  He can set up a program, encourage her, discipline her, whatever it takes to help her get to her goals (or the goals that he sets for her).  However, if she is not fundamentally engaged with the process, if she's just expecting a miracle created by him, it is set up for failure.

Women's relationship with their weight is a very complex issue.  It just isn't that cut and dry, unfortunately.



barelynangel -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 7:34:53 AM)

Raven sorry but that is complete BS.  The reason i say that is because a woman doesn't HAVE to be set up to be focused on her weight to have the process be successful with a Master, what she may need is simply someone who puts into practice through the mastery and his ability to control her and her life to set standards for her whether its in weight loss, education, career, kids, family etc.   \

I never thought about my weight while with him, i never paid much attention, HE was the one who was in charge so to speak of determining what i would do.  HE would be the one setting the expectations and standards when it came to my weight.  HE would be the one who set the rules or adjusted them to have me striving towards what he wanted in terms of my body for me.

So while for people who aren't in M/s relationships may have to have the want/need/and desire FOR THEMSELVES, the constuction of many D/s and M/s relationships don't because the over all concept of how they exist mean its a decision of another what will transpire.  If that person is capable of achieving that type of control, it will happen.

What i see is people tunnel vision on weight loss and say well it has to be this and that and the other cause well that's how it works outside of M/s.   Sorry but M/s and D/s is a whole 'nother bottle of paint.  And many times within M/s relationships and D/s people are able to achieve things they normally cannot outside same BECAUSE they don't have to "make" the decisions, they instead follow the decisions of another who is their focus rather than them focusing on themselves.

I am not speaking of what transpires with regard to once the relationship ends, but the very construction of D/s and M/s exists an environment wherein a person is striving to meet and maintain standards and expectations of another and they don't have to agree with those standards and expectations but simply do it.   MANY people strive to meet expectations and standards of men they call dom or master and they don't always like it but they do it.  I don't get when it comes to weight suddenly blinders go on and its a subject people have to do themselves or for themselves.

yeah when you don't HAVE a authority force dictating standards and expectations you will live by, sure you need to have that inner need, but weight and/or body concept is just another area of control a person can and many do take with regard to their subs and slaves -- and many times the slave or sub doesn't get a say or have a PERSONAL need -- as if they did they would have done it before.   But they do strive to obtain and maintain a say weight and body concept standard and expectation of their Master.

The problem is that weight is a politically correct concept wherein to make it a M/s or D/s control type issue gets people squiggy because it may mean the authority doesn't take her as she is  and love her all the same.

angel



daddysprop247 -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 7:38:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

My former Master was the one who set up the environment and atmosphere wherein he controlled pretty much my weight and in shapeness so to speak.  He was the one who determined when i needed to lose weight or get in better shape and if he felt it was necessary he changed the environment and atmosphere within which he kept me.  

I think most men not only don't want to do such a thing, but many don't know how and they don't know how to do it for themselves either.  So they do not want to put in the work, which is fine -- can't blame them.  But there are some men who do enjoy taking a piece of clay and molding it and some men do it damn well.

All in all, some men are willing to put in the work to take women they seewith potential and make them fuckable lol and some men want a woman to already be fuckable.

Some women thrive under the controlling nature within this regard and some don't.

angel


i agree with this post most of all. not every submissive-type will thrive under this kind of control, and not every Dominant-type is made up of the stuff to properly lay out such a structure and exert such direct control over the life of another...but there are those Masters who are naturally inclined to take such an active role, and those submissives who blossom under the heel.

if my Master wishes for my body to look a certain way, he will do what is necessary to ensure that happens...from strictly controlling my diet to adjusting my exercise routine. He will not say "get it done because it will please me." He will say, "this is what will be done," and he will make it happen. and that is precisely the type of structure and control under which i thrive, because left to my own devices i flounder in confusion and insecurity.

as for those who say a submissive should be internally motivated, or that such methods will not lead to long-term success...well i personally believe that it is pleasing my Master which is all-important. if one no longer has a Master to please, and suddenly gains back all the weight...well really, so what? for me this is about the Master's pleasure, not "what is best for the submissive."





porcelaine -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 7:39:21 AM)

barelynangel,

quote:

I don't get why when it comes to M/s or D/s this concept that seems to work quite well outside of M/s and D/s suddenly becomes not a good thing within M/s or D/s.


I never said it wasn't.

quote:

I mean what's wrong with using a Master to achieve this concept because HE is capable based upon your relationship in setting the environment and atmosphere wherein you thrive and reach his standards and expectations one subject of which is your body image and looks.


I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And if it works for both of them so be it.

quote:

Why? Because its not politically correct for a guy to indicate displeasure at his slave's looks and decides to change them?


I don't know if that comment is directed at me. I have always been of the belief that my body is his to control. Furthermore, I'm one of the few that will come out and openly say that a man isn't required to bend on his physical preferences for the girl one iota.

quote:

Its not a BAD thing, its not some prize when you can do it yourself.  That is why there are different types of people in the world -- some are followers and thrive under the expectations and standards of others, and some don't.  Neither way is better or worse.


Maybe it isn't bad. But the numbers speak for themselves. You have quite a few overweight submissives and a small number of men willing to tackle that. So idealism aside, she's left with a choice. Do it on her own or wait for the cavalry to arrive. Either way, the clock is ticking.

~porcelaine



Aynne88 -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 7:42:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

The only programs i've seen work with slaves are ones where the Master has had the attitude of "your body is so beautiful to me, i want to make it even more beautiful" - and says so.

Every time i've seen a Master start out with the "you're so fat you disgust me" tactic, it doesn't work.  Why?  Because stress and low self-esteem are actually prohibitive to weight loss.

A slave's knowledge that her body is pleasing to her Master - no matter what - is very vital for her happy and fulfilled service to him.


That guy has yet to be born.

But fear not....I was sent here from the future and my sole purpose for being here is to hunt the mother of this man down and kill her before she gives birth to this abomination.

What a pussy.



lol. Kind of. Yesterday we were golfing, and a very large but pretty girl passed us and I asked John "Hey if I got that large would you still love me."? Response "Fuck no, are you kidding me? Would you love me if I were broke?" [;)].  Have to say, we both laughed, but it's true. Not a lot of flowery prose when he tells me how he wants me to look. I'm an adult for christ sake, I own a scale. I don't need him to tell me when I need to get the fat off my ass.





porcelaine -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 7:46:00 AM)

barelynangel,

quote:

The problem is that weight is a politically correct concept wherein to make it a M/s or D/s control type issue gets people squiggy because it may mean the authority doesn't take her as she is  and love her all the same.


The real problem as I see it is that some are unwilling to accept the reality and that their appearance is a deterrent for some dominants. None of this matters if she's never chosen.

~porcelaine



barelynangel -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 7:47:55 AM)

porcelaine, my comments weren't directed at anyone inparticular but i always see the same line of thinking when weight and such becomes a topic of conversaion about M/s or D/s that its wrong or an implication that if someone doesn't want to do it for themselves it doesn't work or for a guy to say he doesn't like his slaves or subs body and has expectations for them to achive that its an abusive situation.

Yes, i get outside D/s and M/s people have to have the inner strength and determination to achieve such -- however, in a D/s and M/s sometimes the very beauty of those relationships is the strength and determination comes from a source that is far stronger and more determined than you are.  And that is what achieve the goals.  MOST people who seek to lose weight have the desire they many times however don't have the strength or determination which is why they pay others to see if those people who don't have any authority over them can somehow get them to that concept.  However, people fail to see the beauty of how M/s and D/s can achieve what people PAY money for without costing them a cent.  Its a concept of using anothers strength, determination and yes authority over your autonomy to achieve and in the end, is like any other expectation and standard you strive to meet in the relationship from serving him a certain way to following a routine he demands to following his diet plan and exercise plan to sculpt you in a way he finds pleasing to himself.  Its not wrong, and for many it ends in success.  But people don't want to see that because its not politically correct for a Man to demand control ove her body outside of tying her up or fucking her.

angel



UniqueRaven -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 7:49:55 AM)

angel, we are saying the same thing - i agree that a woman under Mastery is determined by the Master's decisions for her, including her weight, and there are things that may not even have been a consideration for her prior to his Mastery of her.

What i'm saying is in the process of weight loss and fitness according to his desires for her, she needs to be engaged with the process - or else it isn't going to work.

As a slave, i must be engaged with my Owner and his direction and desires for me (when i am owned again).  It is a dance and there are two involved - he leads, and i follow, no matter what.  i realize we don't always agree on this, but that's ok, i respect your opinions no matter what.  [:)] 



barelynangel -> RE: D/s Weight Watchers (5/31/2010 8:07:03 AM)

"The real problem as I see it is that some are unwilling to accept the reality and that their appearance is a deterrent for some dominants. None of this matters if she's never chosen. "

This i agree with.  IF you are fat and out of shape, your playing field is narrowed because you will either not be picked or you will be picked by someone who has no wish or ability to alter such a concept because their expectations and standards are set for a woman to be fat and out of shape.     I was lucky, i was still in pretty good shape when my Master found me, over the years i was with him my weight fluxuated and my shape moved around due to being athletic and then slacking off etc.  However, he knew what he enjoyed and he was willing to work at maintaining his property in the style he enjoyed no matter if i thought i needed it or not.  Personally, i would love to find a Man willing to do that now lol as i am completely out of shape and suck at doing it on my own -- but then i was before i met him and i still am now.  However, i limit my playing field of men now because i am out of shape and a Man i adored for the longest time told me something that makes sense because he knew i don't want a Master who accepts a fat out of shape woman for his slave - he said
(i and me means me angel):

"You (meaning me angel) have very high expectations for a Master...this isn't a bad thing, and in some repsects is actually GOOD...but it means the playing field is severely narrowed for you.  For someone at the level you're looking for it won't be just an average guy, you're looking for the Master that not only knows and controls himself..but also has the ability to control you.  The guys that meet that criteria are going to be high-powered Alpha males and in all honesty they are looking for certain things.  So the question to you becomes how do you make yourself into the woman that gets this Master's attention.  Not an easy question to answer by any means and it means you have to be very introspective and review all the different aspects of your life and your personality"
 
Personally, i think women who are out of shape and overweight many times feel they have to lower their expectations of the Men they get involved with because of this so they look for someone who accepts them because its easier than changing and they figure if someone accepts them, they won't do the work to change them.
 
However, i never believe MOST people who are overweight and out of shape wherein they say how happy and accepting of themselves they are.  Yes there are a select few, but i really think those people are a very small percentage of the minority.
 
So in the end, i agree the playing fields are very limited unless you want to hook up with a guy who accepts you when you really don't accept of yourself -- i.e., being out of shape and overweight.  Most women i know like this don't want to accept their current situation but want to change it for the better.  They simply suck at doing it on their own so when they have a Man who is in the role of Master or Dom to them, they strive to meet and maintain ALL of the standards of such men, even if it is getting their butts into shape when they don't want too.
 
angel



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