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The American Dream - 5/30/2010 6:52:31 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		A mini-documentary the other night on the American Dream got me to thinking.

What was the original American Dream?

What is the American Dream now?

How has it changed?

Is it still achievable?

Why isnt there an "Irish Dream" or a Russian Dream"? Why is this phrase only used with America?

Im asking for opinions, in case someone doesnt get that part.

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RE: The American Dream - 5/30/2010 7:10:00 PM   
MC4Misfit


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Status: offline 		The original American Dream?  I would have to say it was about freedom to follow their own religion.  The belief that with hard work you could make the world you wanted to live in.

What do people mean when they use the phrase now?   I would say that it's still that if you work hard you can have a safe comfortable life for yourself and your family.

What does the American Dream really seem to be these days?  That you can get lots of money for nothing (winning the lottery, a big lawsuit, etc.) and give live an idle life of luxury.  To have every whim instant granted without having to do anything to earn it.  ...or at least that's what it seems to be for a depressingly large number of people?

If the first modern American Dream achievable?  I think for most people it is, but nothing is certain in the world (and never was).

Is the second achievable?  Too many win the lottery and end up bankrupt because they don't know how to handle the money.  Having to work for the money teaches its real value and what's really important in life. 

Personally, I'll keep working on the first.  I'm doing okay on it, but keep hoping things will get better.


Oh, and this reminds me of a story on 60 Minutes about 15 years ago. It was about how agents are exploiting modern artists.  One piece they showed was 3 basketballs suspended in clear acrylic in an aquarium.  The agent in question said it represent the American Dream.  There ya go, the American Dream is 3 basketballs in a fish tank. LOL

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RE: The American Dream - 5/30/2010 7:40:51 PM   
Fellow


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Status: offline 		 I think, most people relate "American dream" to an opportunity for repressed, poor people from other countries to come to America and achieve decent standard of living. Is it still alive? Sure, but the barriers have been raised, only very few can actually succeed.
It is very difficult for a foreigner to succeed in Nation states like Russia and others. They usually restrict immigration as well. Today, US immigration main principle is family unification/extension that is not fully compatible with the American dream. It is hard to relate American dream to people born in  America. They are rich and successful, or they are not. No need for dreaming. Upward mobility is very low compared to other developed countries.

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RE: The American Dream - 5/30/2010 7:48:22 PM   
thornhappy


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Status: offline 		Mobility used to be higher, didn't it?  Back in the days of...uh....unions...higher taxes....when CEOs made about 8 times the pay of the lowest paid worker in the company, etc. et al.  Productivity keeps going up but wages don't.  Home income stagnated and would've fallen if not for a second earner.



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RE: The American Dream - 5/30/2010 8:29:01 PM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		To me, the American Dream was opportunity.

It was an immigrant family that started up a restaurant and made it.
It was a blue collar man who got a factory job and on those wages supported a stay at home wife and a family, and got a pension when he retired.
It was two college dropouts that formed Apple Computer, or one that formed Microsoft.  Or a salesman that founded CNN.
It was a Bill Clinton or a Barack Obama that came from a single parent household and became President of the United States.

The first two are not terribly uncommon worldwide, and I would venture to say that modern-day Europe still allows for #2, but I don't expect it to be that common in ten years.  The third- Richard Branson is the only European entrepreneur that fits that mold that I know.




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RE: The American Dream - 5/30/2010 10:12:11 PM   
LadyPact


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Status: offline 		While I can understand the basis of an above poster saying that the original American dream was freedom of religion, it really doesn't click for Me that way.  It might be splitting hairs, but that would be The Colonial Dream. 

The American Dream causes Me to envision those who dreamed of coming to America at the beginning of the age of industry.  Back when there were promises of work for anyone who could get the correct papers and manage to pay for passage on whatever ship they could afford.  People who had dreams of owning land or a home that would never be possible in their native homeland.  Of course, that wasn't always the case when they really got here.  Some manages to get their kids to school, rather than to the factories.

To be honest, I'm not really sure if there is an American Dream now.  If it's the same dream, I'm not even so sure that it's even as realistic as it was then.  Anybody coming to this country today had already better have a firm head start as far as education or financial cushion to start out.  The education is guaranteed for their kids more due to child labor laws than actual reliance on the adults to make a living.

Yes, I do think it can be achieved depending on the circumstances.  Money, education, and legal status being the obvious.  The subtle ones of drive and determination to succeed are in there as well.  Look at all of the nationalized citizens who own businesses of their own.  It absolutely is possible.

I think you don't hear the phrase associated with other countries because it was so deeply associated with that time that America needed those immigrants for the industrial age, so it was as much propaganda as it was dream.  They were the cogs in the machine, something other countries didn't require such hardship to make realized.  It's one thing to leave the farm for the city.  Another thing entirely to cross the ocean for it.




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RE: The American Dream - 5/30/2010 11:21:56 PM   
Real0ne


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Status: offline 		The american dream changed with the times.

In the beginning the king couldnt get people to come here and literally had to pay them to come over here and settle.

Then came the revolutionary war which was over taxes and yes religion.

Government is a religion you know.

many years go by before peoples brains catch up to what is really happening around them and some live and die and are never the wiser with outdated versions of well everything.

So america began to prosper quite rapidly with gold strikes and silver mines etc taking us into the early 1900's of course in comes the industrial revolution.

With people like tesla the inventor of the radio and polyphase, westinghouse and throw shit at the wall until something sticks edison (phone), ford (motive force), etc  literally kickstarted this economy into fast forward.

Wonderful sayings like give us your homeless stick in the minds of the oppressed in other nations.

America was a republic you could own land and a home tax free. 

Well in come the western bankers pushing democratic policies and international and merchantile law and now we are defacto (in operation) little or no different than anywhere else that are governed by the bankers.

In fact people under the feudal system and the magna charta actually lived better than we do with our feudal system of today under the democracy by comparison. (all things considered)  yes yes more modern I know.

The freedom known as the american dream was stripped away in 1933, as george carlin says a government that threw us overboard 50 fuckin years ago.

Very few people know freedom in this country today and because of the monetary system it is IMPOSSIBLE to own your property.

The dollar bill is a promise to pay one dollar.  now that seems pretty innocent doesnt it?

Well all you have is a bunch of people passing around a bunch of promises to pay to the bearer notes.

They are notes of indebtedness. 

They represent debt. 

How can anyone "pay" for something by giving them debt for payment?  Right, IQ 20 required question they cant.

Who bought and paid for anything?  LMAO 

The problems are so simple in our faces and yet no one can see what is biting them in the nose every day.

The american dream that the foreigners came here in an effort to get away from political and religious oppression found out the hard way that they only jumped from one frying pan to another.

On the other hand if all you have is sand america probably still looks pretty good.

Then again there are many people who would not sell their souls to the democracy and prefer to continue eating sand so people over here can ridicule them for being backwards and since they are backwards they deserve to have the oil fields and countries taken over by the imperial empire.

Thats the american dream today.  we dream about yesterday and other countries dream about being left alone.



< Message edited by Real0ne -- 5/30/2010 11:45:00 PM >

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RE: The American Dream - 5/31/2010 12:17:21 AM   
Dubbelganger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Mobility used to be higher, didn't it?  Back in the days of...uh....unions...higher taxes....when CEOs made about 8 times the pay of the lowest paid worker in the company, etc. et al.  Productivity keeps going up but wages don't.  Home income stagnated and would've fallen if not for a second earner.




Woman!!! Whatayou, sumkinda Commonist? Unions are agin' what the baby Jeezus wrote in the Declination of the Constipation. It's raht there in the 33rd commandment: Thou shalt not suffer a Wobbly to live. If'n Gawd wanted Eyetalians and Nigras to be rich, he woudda made 'em white. Shee-it, girl. You got a lottta schoolin' to get done. It's allraht, the Texass Bord of Ejukashun rewrit the histry books so they ain't got no more Socializm in 'em anymore.

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RE: The American Dream - 5/31/2010 12:27:35 AM   
Dubbelganger


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Status: offline 		LadyPact: "Yes, I do think it can be achieved depending on the circumstances. Money, education, and legal status being the obvious. The subtle ones of drive and determination to succeed are in there as well. Look at all of the nationalized citizens who own businesses of their own. It absolutely is possible. "

Sure it is. If one bands together with others of like ethnicity, and pools the money, it's easy to open a restaurant or buy a convenience store. Then everyone eats only in the "communally-owned" restaurant so that the money stays in the "investment club", if you will. Outsiders come and spend their money as well. Money comes in, but it doesn't leave. Then they pay tuition for the most promising kids, who become doctors, or engineers, or programmers.

That's a great way to do things as an immigrant community. Non-immigrant Amis don't do that. We've soaked up the John Wayne individualist every man for himself dog-eat-dog paradigm. The "American Way" is anti-communal, unless it's something really special, like the Apollo program, or yet another war against Eastasia.

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RE: The American Dream - 5/31/2010 1:32:19 AM   
Real0ne


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it depends on how far you want to expand your commune.  everyone in the US?

back when there used to be "families" that is how it was done.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: The American Dream - 5/31/2010 2:20:39 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		From a non-american perspective, the american dream seemed to be mostly about social mobility if you worked hard & were smart, particularly for non-1st world immigrants....the american dream as in the dream of becoming american. There's that old quote, 'give me your something something tired poor something etc etc'.

The stats seem to indicate that it's pretty much dead, social mobility still quite good, but not the best, and certainly immigrantion isn't welcome.

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RE: The American Dream - 5/31/2010 2:23:44 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		I got my American dream.      I would like tho some land- space in the country. I will get that too.

As to what others want- locally- everyone wants to be in the country.  

I dont want a wife and 2 kids or a picket fence.   I just want to live well.

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RE: The American Dream - 5/31/2010 3:02:38 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

What was the original American Dream?



A shared destiny.

The people who shaped your nation looked at the European countries and tried to balance political freedom with a united and strong nation capable of defending itself. They looked at the United Provinces....particularly The Netherlands.....which were streets ahead of the rest of Europe in terms of the individual's political freedom....but the region wasn't strong enough to defend itself and so maintain the political freedom of its peoples.

So...the 'American Dream'...became a means of binding people.....a shared destiny....the glue to keep a large nation of disparate peoples together and vested in coming together to defend the ideal where necessary. It would be inaccurate to say those people achieved the political freedom of which they spoke but they certainly had a much improved system when compared with Europe.

I think it was de Tocqueville who visited the US in the 19th century and stated something like: "Americans are better fed...better educated...and more politically minded than the average European"....and he was an elitist so it must have pained him to say that...and he did throw in a few back handed compliments along the way. But I suppose this was what the ideal hoped to create....a people vested in its civic duty and a nation all the better for it.

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RE: The American Dream - 5/31/2010 5:48:53 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

To me, the American Dream was opportunity.

It was an immigrant family that started up a restaurant and made it.
It was a blue collar man who got a factory job and on those wages supported a stay at home wife and a family, and got a pension when he retired.
It was two college dropouts that formed Apple Computer, or one that formed Microsoft.  Or a salesman that founded CNN.
It was a Bill Clinton or a Barack Obama that came from a single parent household and became President of the United States.

The first two are not terribly uncommon worldwide, and I would venture to say that modern-day Europe still allows for #2, but I don't expect it to be that common in ten years.  The third- Richard Branson is the only European entrepreneur that fits that mold that I know.




How about (to pick a couple of obvious examples) Felix Dennis and Anita Roddick? Or that horrible twat Alan Sugar, come to that. A case could probably be made for Ian Livingstone and Steve Jackson as well: Livingstone in particular is doing very nicely indeed.
(I think Microsoft was originally a triumverate, before Gates forced the other two founding members out.)

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RE: The American Dream - 5/31/2010 1:07:26 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Upward mobility is extremely limited these days thanks to the total devaluation of hard work and this "global economy."
Seems if you work hard these days you're not "supposed" to get rich, that's reserved for people sitting in offices screwing the people.
And, who are you going to sell your goods and services to if everyone else has been victimized by this "global economy" and has no money to buy your goods and services anyway?
Fifteen dollars an hour these days is "subsistance". How are you going to pay a lawyer or accountant on $15 an hour? You're not. So they'll suffer too.
Things can be so efficient that it makes life miserable for people. Why pay Lawyers and M.D.s $200k per year when you can import them by the hundreds of thousands from China or India? Efficiency.
Working class people should be making $50-$60 k these days, they're not. Working class people in China only make what, $3 per day?
Of course the people sitting in offices think "their work" is worth more. Heh, heh, heh. They're next!
The American dream doesn't exhist anymore.
In-efficiency was so much more fun!
There's nothing to exploit anymore, except workers. What happens when that's been done completely?
Labor Day should be cancelled.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 5/31/2010 1:13:30 PM >

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RE: The American Dream - 5/31/2010 1:09:17 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

What was the original American Dream?

It was a 1950s fantasy built on boom markets following the destruction of much European production during WWII.

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RE: The American Dream - 5/31/2010 1:42:44 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		What most people don't understand (yet) is that this "Global Economy" is ***EVERYONE'S*** enemy.
With the exception of maybe 20,000 people who are becomming obscenely rich from it out of 6 billion on the planet.
If you can't afford to buy one of those Islands off the coast of Dubai you're not one of those 20,000.
People going to college today and paying $150k per year for it will be making $15 an hour ten years from now.
"Efficiency."

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RE: The American Dream - 5/31/2010 3:17:09 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		You are making up numbers again, popeye.

Guess what? We weren't richer before the global economy.

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RE: The American Dream - 5/31/2010 3:43:35 PM   
InvisibleBlack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

What was the original American Dream?


"The American Dream is a national ethos of the United States of American in which freedom includes a promise of prosperity."
 
- Wikipedia
 
 
I would argue that the "American Dream" is a 20th century phenomenon. I don't believe that the Founding Fathers of the 18th century or the pioneers and homesteaders of the 19th century used the phrase. For them the ethos was "Manifest Destiny".

In my opinion, the "American Dream" is a combination of freedom, equality of opportunity and fair play based on an underlying sense of progress and improvement over time stemming from the values the country espouses. In more concrete terms, the American Dream is the idea that if you worked hard you could achieve a better life for yourself and your family - and that your children would have access to better education, better opportunities and a better life than you had. A self-perpetuating cycle where every generation would not only be better off materially, but intellectually, socially, etc.

Again from Wikipedia:

James Truslow Adams coined the phrase "American Dream" in his 1931 book "Epic of America":


"The American Dream is that dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for every man, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement. It is a difficult dream for the European upper classes to interpret adequately, also too many of us ourselves have grown weary and mistrustful of it. It is not a dream of motor cars and high wages merely, but a dream of social order in which each man and each woman shall be able to attain to the fullest stature of which they are innately capable, and be recognized by others for what they are, regardless of the fortuitous circumstances of birth or position."


< Message edited by InvisibleBlack -- 5/31/2010 3:44:48 PM >

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RE: The American Dream - 5/31/2010 4:18:14 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
What was the original American Dream?

Again from Wikipedia:

James Truslow Adams coined the phrase "American Dream" in his 1931 book ""Epic of America":
quote:

The American Dream is that dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for every man, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement... a dream of social order in which each man and each woman shall be able to attain to the fullest stature of which they are innately capable, and be recognized by others for what they are, regardless of the fortuitous circumstances of birth or position.


Thanks for that IB.  I was wondering when the idea was originally articulated.  Interesting that it was in the depths of the Depression of the 1930s.


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