I Was Just Following Orders

I Was Just Following Orders (Full Version)

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DarlingSavage -> I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 4:00:25 PM)
I know this is kind of old news, but still, as far as I know, nothing has been done to prosecute those responsible for violating the terms of the Geneva Convention. However, I was watching a film on the prosecution of Adolph Eichmann and others and in his testimony, Eichmann states that the only thing he is guilty of is following orders. He states that the only ones responsible for the atrocities of Auschwitz and the other camps are solely those that were in political authority. This made me think of the controversy surrounding those that carried out orders to perform torture for the US in the pursuit of "intelligence". I recall people saying several times over that the men and women actually committing the torture shouldn't be prosecuted since they were merely being obedient and "following orders". This sickens me. Don't people know the difference between right and wrong? Especially on this level. I think that if it was wrong for people of the SS and the Gestapo on the lower rungs of hierarchy to commit these crimes, it is also equally wrong for our people to commit these same crimes. Will people be so blind as to just follow orders or does anyone follow the guidance of their own conscience, even to the point of persecution? The Army I was in told us to be kind to POWs because that way, we could befriend our enemies. That's what they showed to us privates new in basic, anyway. Anyway, torture doesn't really procure intelligence, all you get is people saying what you want them to say just to make you stop hurting them. Well, I'm curious to know what people think.

popeye1250 -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 4:07:55 PM)
Well what a lovely sentiment on Memorial Day!

DarlingSavage -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 4:09:28 PM)
Well, I'm just trying to get this community organized for a proper celebration.

pahunkboy -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 4:13:16 PM)
LOL there goes my keyboard.

pahunkboy -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 4:25:22 PM)
To reply- tribunals do not take the excuse- historically speaking.

DarkSteven -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 5:06:18 PM)
I am still appalled that the Bush administration would push torture. As you point out, information obtained that way is not considered credible. One victim was waterboarded over 100 times. Come on, how much more info could he have had? It also lowered our level of moral righteousness. Time and again, the neocons ignored conventional thought and pushed their own agenda. Torture, invading Iraq without any idea how to occupy it, tax cuts without shrinking government, all flew in the face of conventional wisdom without any thought that conventional wisom could possibly have a point. Just like Leninist Russia, pushing agendas solely on ideological grounds with no cares of the effects is brutal.

MeenMrMustard -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 6:38:50 PM)
quote: Don't people know the difference between right and wrong? Especially on this level. Yeah, it's amazing what people will do to save their own skins, isn't it? I suppose you would have faced execution for failure to carry out orders, given the same circumstances.

DarlingSavage -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 6:43:47 PM)
Do you really think they faced execution for not following orders? Isn't there something about being able to follow your own conscience? I think there is. Besides, I don't believe that I could do these things to another person anyway. I've never even hit another person. Well, once I spanked my daughter. She wouldn't behave and I said, "Do you want a spanking?" She said yes, so I spanked her and when I was done, she turned over and laughed at me. So, yeah, I'm brutally violent.

Brain -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 6:45:34 PM)
I think they should all be held responsible. They should start with the people in authority first. One thing that has to be changed is this idea of immunity for people that work in the government. Everybody should be equal under the law whether it's the queen of England or the president or a general or anyone else in government. There is a reason they say you can't fight City Hall and this is it!

MeenMrMustard -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 6:51:49 PM)
quote: Do you really think they faced execution for not following orders? Without a doubt. Dissention must be nipped in the bud to maintain control. Examples must be made.

DarlingSavage -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 6:52:44 PM)
I agree, all the people should be held accountable. Government position should not equate judicial immunity. If someone commits a crime, they should be prosecuted.

MeenMrMustard -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 6:55:27 PM)
quote: I agree, all the people should be held accountable. Government position should not equate judicial immunity. If someone commits a crime, they should be prosecuted. Then you're saying you would have faced your own execution, given similar circumstances?

DarlingSavage -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 6:56:40 PM)
Yes, I'm saying that. I couldn't do that. I couldn't hold someone else's head under water or pull out their fingernails. I couldn't do it. Of course, I don't think that refusing to torture someone is a crime. I was talking about real crimes such as committing torture or genocide. Don't twist my words around.

MeenMrMustard -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 6:58:30 PM)
quote: Yes, I'm saying that. I couldn't do that. I couldn't hold someone else's head under water or pull out their fingernails. I couldn't do it. I'm talking about Nazi Germany, WW2.

DarlingSavage -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 6:59:34 PM)
Even then.

MeenMrMustard -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 7:00:35 PM)
quote: I think they should all be held responsible. They should start with the people in authority first. One thing that has to be changed is this idea of immunity for people that work in the government. Everybody should be equal under the law whether it's the queen of England or the president or a general or anyone else in government. There is a reason they say you can't fight City Hall and this is it! It's a lot easier for armchair judges to draw such conclusions.

MeenMrMustard -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 7:04:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage Even then. quote: Even then. It's easy for you to say this in the comfort of your own home. Facing one's own mortality has a profound effect upon most people's decisions.

kdsub -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 7:23:35 PM)
I am a veteran...very patriotic…I know we as a nation were not always right in our actions to counter communism in the cold war but I believe those actions were done with good intent. But under G. Bush we invaded another country without provocation for political and material gain then tortured prisoners for information. I am ashamed that this happened and believe those at the top should be brought to justice. It is the only way we can regain our moral standing in the world. Yes we have made many mistakes in the distant past but I am only going by my generation…My generation in power destroyed our reputation in the world and there is no denying it. Butch

TheHeretic -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 7:31:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven One victim was waterboarded over 100 times. Why do we never get the name, when this is brought up, Steve? It's not a secret. Do you think it would hurt your argument to mention that it was the guy who planned 9/11, not just some random guy, from some random battlefield, who managed to be freaky enough to get his ass shipped to Cuba?

MC4Misfit -> RE: I Was Just Following Orders (5/31/2010 7:45:01 PM)
"I was only following orders" was not considered an acceptable defense at the end of WW II. That is a well established legal precedent. When there was a fuss made, Bush said the Geneva Convention was "quaint". He did everything he could to get around it. Torture is illegal in the US? We'll send people to other countries to be tortured. We'll keep them at Gitmo because that's not US soil so US law doesn't apply there. (Since it was a US base I don't buy that fact, but that's the rational Bush was using). He tried to claim that they weren't soldiers, so the GC didn't apply, but he wanted them tried in military courts. For some of the troops, they were told to help "soften up" the prisoners for questioning, but were never given any kind of guidelines for what that meant. That is definitely a fault of their superiors. Either way, the people who actually committed the torture are responsible for their actions. Should they have refused their orders? Absolutely. It is well another well-established precedent that a soldier cannot be punished for refusing to follow an illegal order.

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