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RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/11/2006 6:14:45 PM   
VvShadowspawnvV


Posts: 218
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		i see the difference this way:

Many submissives insist that "submissive does not mean doormat";

But as His slave, if my Master requires a doormat, i am happy to lie down so He may wipe His boots.

=)

becca

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/11/2006 7:32:59 PM   
CERCKL


Posts: 1039
Joined: 3/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Grinz.....decides not to go there.... cutting CERCKL a little slack today.... thinking of making today ..."Be nice to CERCKL day"... .....LOL


truesub, nice to see you feeling better...
Now, where did that 'brat' on/off button go?

C

_____________________________

AND I AM TOO AN ASSHOLE, I HAVE REFERENCES!!!

"Please, please, please believe me, I really am an asshole. All that Enlightenment and Higher Learning shit was all a ruse."

(in reply to truesub4u)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/11/2006 9:03:20 PM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		It says that we're evolving humans with shades of grey.  Black and white is so boring, don't you think?

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/12/2006 1:19:09 AM   
cottagecougar


Posts: 3
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuspiciousSub

as a submissive all i can say is i dont try topping from the bottom
in what i have seen and learned the only difference is that a slave is ordered and made demands of and does as she/he is told irrespective
where a submissive is allowed his/her limits and is allowed to make choices re her treatment



I must say that I agree completely with suspicioussub's definition. In fact, that question came up earlier today with my sub.....well put my dear.

< Message edited by cottagecougar -- 4/12/2006 1:33:17 AM >

(in reply to SuspiciousSub)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/12/2006 6:01:05 AM   
texturedshroom


Posts: 27
Joined: 6/5/2004
Status: offline 		I've always thought the idea of characterizing "subs" in one of 3 categories, (bottom, slave or submissive) is rather absurd.

The very term "BDSM" has 4 incredibly broad components to it (B, D, DS, SM), and yet you can divide all people who want to be on the bottom into 3 categories? When I see blog posts at other sites of other subs trying to decide which of the three categories they should make themselves fit into, I shudder. If I fit in I wouldn't be here to begin with.

A submissive is one who submits. "Slave" is a word used to denote imaginary ownership of a person in order to fulfill the fantasies of each person, whether that be 24/7 slavery or something less.

(in reply to Leather134)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/12/2006 3:25:38 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: texturedshroom

.

A submissive is one who submits. "Slave" is a word used to denote imaginary ownership of a person ....



You might want to avoid telling a slave that their state if mind, state of being, identity, is all an imagination.

(in reply to texturedshroom)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/13/2006 1:19:22 AM   
MistyMenthal


Posts: 413
Joined: 3/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

i see the difference this way:

Many submissives insist that "submissive does not mean doormat";

But as His slave, if my Master requires a doormat, i am happy to lie down so He may wipe His boots.

=)

becca

 
I see this as being both?
Submissive and a Slave.
So You can still clean the house,
and Still lick Your Masters boots clean!
 
I've never done slave things beofre,
atleast not that I'm aware of?
I've olnly done Submissive things.
 
I Don't believe that being told directly to clean
the house is being a Slave?
 
Or being told to wash Your Dominates back
is being a Slave either?
 
Maybe I'm not seeing things clear enough?
 
Kiss me, Misty

(in reply to VvShadowspawnvV)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/13/2006 5:06:36 AM   
texturedshroom


Posts: 27
Joined: 6/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

You might want to avoid telling a slave that their state if mind, state of being, identity, is all an imagination.


Excuse me? My point was that the word "slave" can mean many things. Two people could be in a D/s relationship and the dominant could call the other his/her "slave" without it being a 24/7 sort of thing. Or it could be a 24/7 relationship where the person calling themselves a "slave" exists fully to serve the person calling themselves the "dominant" and becomes complete by doing so. Great! The point of using the word "imaginary" was to show that it's in the head, which is not in any way inconsistent with it being a state of mind. What's the difference between the mind and the imagination?

Now the actual point of my post was that "slave," "submissive" and "bottom" are not sufficient ways of describing BDSM "roles." And that anyone who attempts to standardize these words and force people to define themselves as one makes the BDSM world seeem as intolerant and stifling as the non-BDSM world. I posted this on another site but thought I'd post it here too:

quote:

It's almost funny, but really not, that the largest obstacle for many people trying to explore their BDSM is the hierarchical framework of our society and its suppression of altering views... yet many within the BDSM world seek to impose a similar structure on it.


< Message edited by texturedshroom -- 4/13/2006 5:14:07 AM >

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/13/2006 6:05:39 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		This is silly, we're all grown adults, and all know that slavery is illegal, and has been for 150 years in this country, so IMO there are no "twue slaves", only submissives who are too weak to care for themselves, and use bdsm as an excuse to have someone take care of them.























Generalizations suck don't they?

You are whatever makes you and your s/o happy, be it sub, slave, top, dom, domme, tinkerbell, tooth fairy, or santa claus. Who the fuck cares what you call yourself!

(in reply to texturedshroom)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/13/2006 6:08:08 AM   
LuvinDaddy


Posts: 3
Joined: 1/14/2006
Status: offline 		In my opinion, all too frequently, people oversimplify the roles in BDSM relationships.  One common problem arising from that is that you have misguided people trying to impose their view on others, in ignorance.

To put this in another context, the working world.  It's like saying that "superiors do X" and "subordinates do Y".  Well, no.  There are as many variations on this relationship as there are in a D/S relationship, for example.

In a D/S relationship, there is even greater freedom to define the form of the interactions, which are of course manifold.  Why? Because there is much less legal and no business structure constraining it.

This state of affairs does not constitute a problem, in fact, it makes perfect sense.  Any voluntary relationship (which these most certainly are), must satisfy the needs of it's parties, to have any value.  Just as in a vanilla relationship, a "proper" D/S or M/S relationship need only provide for their needs to the mutual satisfaction of its partners.  Exactly *how* this is done, is completely up to the partners, to communicate, understand, and negotiate.  It's the same as saying there is no single "right" way to be a husband or a wife.

Returning to the notion of the "value" in a relationship as arising from the mutual satisfaction of needs... I will also state that the value of a relationship may be "measured" if you will, by the extent and the depth to which it mutually satisfies the needs of the partners.  If you think about that, and the infinite variety of the human spirit, the logical thing to do, therefore, rather than inhabiting the suboptimal shell of a relationship, inherited from some fantasy book, or the pontification of others... is to place upon each the responsibility to communicate needs, desires, goals, and to constantly negotiate (informally of course) and refine the relationship so as to improve it's mutual benefits to the partners.  To do anything less, makes no sense, to this person, at least.

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/13/2006 12:03:42 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		"The point of using the word "imaginary" was to show that it's in the head, which is not in any way inconsistent with it being a state of mind. What's the difference between the mind and the imagination? " From #108

Many a slave has said that being a slave is not a role they play, is not only in their head but is in all of them, it is who they are. When you say that anyone who says they are a slave is existing in an imaginary state, is in a state of fantasy, you who just said that who they think they are is not real. Not everyone is playing a slave as your definition demands, some people believe themselves to be slaves and your definition  belittles them.


"Just as in a vanilla relationship, a "proper" D/S or M/S relationship need only provide for their needs to the mutual satisfaction of its partners.  Exactly *how* this is done, is completely up to the partners, to communicate, understand, and negotiate.  It's the same as saying there is no single "right" way to be a husband or a wife." from #110

To define terms does not in anyway assign the moral value of Right and wrong to them. Nor does defining terms say anything about how individuals conduct themselves. All that is done by defining words such as slave and Submissive is say "that when such and such a relationship exists in reality it is called "XXXX"" It can be defined as widely or as narrowly as we wish, but we pin it down. The reason for doing this is so that we can think about and talk about certain variations of human existence intelligently. All that we do is stop using mumbo-jumbo so that we can start understanding our choices. For the most part we learn different ways of living by watching other people, when we see someone else living a certain way we know that this possibility is not only the food for fantasy, but it can be reality. When we make it impossible to learn how other people live by purposefully corrupting the language we make it harder for anyone else to follow in our footsteps. We also have made it possible for people to think that they are living a BDSM life just like many others here are when in reality they are living in an abusive relationship just like many others are. Corrupting the language has caused the BDSM community to become a participant in abuse by creating the conditions for victims to not understand their lives.   Language matters. Those who refuse to refine the language of BDSM hurt real people.

< Message edited by ICGsteve -- 4/13/2006 12:10:34 PM >

(in reply to LuvinDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/13/2006 1:45:36 PM   
VvShadowspawnvV


Posts: 218
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		*kiss* Misty =)

"submissive" is an adjective, really... it describes a personality trait... i believe that all slaves (since, as people keep pointing out, "slavery" is illegal, and all M/s relationships are actually voluntary) are submissive. they volunteer to be slaves because they have deeply submissive feelings. i am submissive to my Master to the point that i will do "anything" to remain with Him. Because He is a good, sane man, "anything" will not include actions that are seriously harmful to myself, my children, or anyone else. "Anything" WILL include things i may not feel like doing, and things i am afraid of. Housework falls under the "might not feel like doing" category. =P Ultimately, we define ourselves, of course.

ramble, ramble....
becca

(in reply to MistyMenthal)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/13/2006 3:11:41 PM   
texturedshroom


Posts: 27
Joined: 6/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

Many a slave has said that being a slave is not a role they play, is not only in their head but is in all of them, it is who they are.


Your mind is who you are. Your arm is not a slave. Your foot is not a slave. Your gull bladder is not a slave. Nor is your gull bladder a Democrat, an existentialist, or a problem drinker. All of those things are in your mind.

quote:

When you say that anyone who says they are a slave is existing in an imaginary state, is in a state of fantasy, you who just said that who they think they are is not real.


You're putting words in my mouth. Try to actually read the post you're replying to, and maybe it'll make sense this time around.

quote:

Not everyone is playing a slave as your definition demands, some people believe themselves to be slaves and your definition  belittles them.


Firstly, my definition does not belittle anyone. My definition belittles people who demand that the word "slave" mean one specific type of role, and more specifically, demands that everyone either be that type of role or one of two others. And I'm sorry, but the word "slave" has existed long before its use by the BDSM community, and it meant someone legally bound in servitude to another person. No one is legally bound to anyone. And everyone here would agree that a "slave" has the right to stop being bound to someone, even if they would never dream of doing so. Thus, in the strictest sense, no one is a "slave," but the word can be used, loosely, to denote the relationship someone has to another.

A person may very well be devoted entirely to the servitude of another person, so that it is who they are. There is nothing wrong with that. I have never said there is anything wrong with that. Since I am a submissive person browsing a BDSM website, I can't imagine why you would ever imagine I would think there is anything wrong with that. The point is that the word "slave" does not have a rigid definition. That's all.

I think your answers to my post have proved my point: that people in the BDSM community are too concerned with nailing down specific roles and snapping people into them. And that anyone who doesn't snap into those roles is an outsider. For example, I said one dominant could call one submissiver his/her "slave" on a non-24/7 basis, and you assumed that that was belitting all slaves. In order for this to be true, then there would have to be something about non-24/7 slavery that was bad, that was "less" of a BDSM relationship. Why is this so? If I submit to someone mentally and physically, then afterward talk to them as an equal, am I less of a submissive? Submission has been a part of me as long as I can remember, far before puberty, even before grade school. Thus long before I ever came to this community. I have yet to find my specific identity within BDSM; it may one day involve 24/7 slavery, who knows. But if you think less of me if I don't submit 24/7, then you do nothing but illustrate my original point--that you are making this community into something as rigid and stifling as the other community that looks down on submissiveness.

quote:

To define terms does not in anyway assign the moral value of Right and wrong to them. Nor does defining terms say anything about how individuals conduct themselves. All that is done by defining words such as slave and Submissive is say "that when such and such a relationship exists in reality it is called "XXXX"" It can be defined as widely or as narrowly as we wish, but we pin it down. The reason for doing this is so that we can think about and talk about certain variations of human existence intelligently. All that we do is stop using mumbo-jumbo so that we can start understanding our choices. For the most part we learn different ways of living by watching other people, when we see someone else living a certain way we know that this possibility is not only the food for fantasy, but it can be reality. When we make it impossible to learn how other people live by purposefully corrupting the language we make it harder for anyone else to follow in our footsteps. We also have made it possible for people to think that they are living a BDSM life just like many others here are when in reality they are living in an abusive relationship just like many others are. Corrupting the language has caused the BDSM community to become a participant in abuse by creating the conditions for victims to not understand their lives.   Language matters. Those who refuse to refine the language of BDSM hurt real people.


What you're saying is great, but there are two problems here:
1. The word "slave" has existed for so long, and means something so different from its use in this community, that it would be impossible to define a special meaning for it within the BDSM world. So a better answer would be to come up with a new one, or maybe an adequate adjective to narrow it down.
2. It has gotten to a point where submissive people are so caught up in semantics, of "what is a slave" and "what is a submissive" and "what is a bottom," that they forget to ask "what am I?" And, worse, when they do ask that question, they feel they have to fit into one of those three roles.

< Message edited by texturedshroom -- 4/13/2006 3:24:12 PM >

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/13/2006 10:00:34 PM   
CERCKL


Posts: 1039
Joined: 3/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

It has gotten to a point where submissive people are so caught up in semantics, of "what is a slave" and "what is a submissive" and "what is a bottom," that they forget to ask "what am I?" And, worse, when they do ask that question, they feel they have to fit into one of those three roles.


I think that goes with people in most roles...one area I have always had issue with labels is their limitations...they can help define, expand us but usually people get caught up in the boundaries...

C


_____________________________

AND I AM TOO AN ASSHOLE, I HAVE REFERENCES!!!

"Please, please, please believe me, I really am an asshole. All that Enlightenment and Higher Learning shit was all a ruse."

(in reply to texturedshroom)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/13/2006 10:40:34 PM   
texturedshroom


Posts: 27
Joined: 6/5/2004
Status: offline 		I agree; I know others have expressed to me it's the same with Mistress/Domme/Goddess/Master/Dom/Daddy/etc.

The very idea of rigidly-defined roles seems insincere to me...you are what you are, you call yourself what you want, maybe it's what best describes you, and maybe it's something else.

(in reply to CERCKL)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/13/2006 10:49:44 PM   
SweetPosession


Posts: 87
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline 		My understanding of the difference is that submissives, while taking a subserviant role in play, consider themselves (and are considered) more or less equal partners, even in a 24/7 lifestyle. A submissive is likely to maintain safewords, and probably a less restricted lifesyle. A slave, however, is considered to be almost sub-human, owned entirely by his/her Master/Mistress. He/she is objectified in the inherent dynamics of the relationship. A slave is less likely to be allowed (or to want) a safeword, and is more likely to, for example, have to ask permission to satisfy basic needs such as going to the bathroom. There are more subtle differences as well, but those are the ones I've heard of.

I'm by no means an expert. I may be wrong, and I'm happy to be told about it.

(in reply to knees2you)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/14/2006 4:03:01 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline
quote:

People say that there is a difference between
Submissives and Slaves, but what I want to know is
Either way You are doing what was told Correct.
Is that right?

Even a Master or Mistress who have a Slave
would still talk to them about wanting to
do something to them, right?


Generally subs can say "no" i think..

or have boundaries that dom can NOT cross..

erm i always thought they were different.. but at the same time.. with certian ppl and the way they live, one in the same

(in reply to knees2you)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/14/2006 4:09:07 PM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: maybeican

There is a total difference between a slave and a submissive. A slave devotes their life to the One they serve. A submissive trys to control from the bottom.


That's bologna.

Most submissives I know do not try to control from the bottom - and some slaves I know *do*.

(in reply to maybeican)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/14/2006 4:16:35 PM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		subrob,

i know many slaves who are quite capable of taking care of themselves, the reason that they and i are slaves is not because we can't take care of ourselves, but rather our strong desire to take care of someone else, to serve another person completely. If the only people you have met who call themselves slaves are those who can't function in the real world, you need to meet a different class of people.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/14/2006 4:17:16 PM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
it's simply that they don't define themselves as a slave.  I know I could name a ton of people who others define as slaves but they define themselves as submissive and vice versa.


Or simply, "Sir's girl".

:)

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 120
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