What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (Full Version)

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slavejali -> What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 5:04:34 PM)

A couple of the posts Ive responded to lately got me thinking about something. Now all I have to do is find the words to express it.

What separates the bdsm community from everyone else? What makes it a sub-community realistically? Is it?

There are masters in the world who have nothing to do with bdsm, Ive met quite a few. You could surrender to these masters perhaps even more easily than a bdsm master who defines himself simply as his ability to "own" you or taking on a position of "control". If they define themselves as a "guide" or "savior" for their submissive/slave in general, sorry I dont buy that, I could "master" most men if it came down to that , simply because I have intricate knowledge of myself and human nature. I'm sure there are other submissive/slave women who could do just as well as me in that regard. (Sorry I dont submit because I'm broken and need healing.) Within a bdsm context, the term Master has to come down to "ownership" and if it comes down to that, people "own" other people all the time. Your employer owns you in a way, they have the ability to change the course of your life through offering education, financial recompense, their demands on you and your time etc. People can own your heart and soul just by connecting to you with love. People can feed your desires and own you oh so simply.

Thinking about bdsm play, its not very original and most of it certainly hasnt originated within the bdsm community. There have been cultures for eons who have suspended people by the skin for the purposes of initiation or even men who have attached their balls to really heavy things to show their transcendence over pain, you could call this deep subspace they would call it trance. In the Kama Sutra a text that is thousands of years old it describes techniques for sex, including spanking.

The D/s dynamic plays out within all cultures and within so many relationships that have probably never heard of any term to do with bdsm.

So if the exploration, the play,  the sex, the dominant/submissive dynamic, the master/slave dynamic is and has been alive and well for eons of time and still is outside the bdsm community, what defines us as a community in and of itself?

Is it simply because a language has been forumulated that people can learn and so more effectively communicate with each other? Is it the parties? Is it the clothes and accessories? Have we created something and named it to make ourselves feel better about our desire to explore sexuality and interpersonal relationships in a more intense way?

Comments please..



KnightofMists -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 5:08:41 PM)

I thought it was the membership card we got when we joined! you know the one.. "Birth Certificate"



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 5:13:56 PM)

What defines "us" from "them" is that "we" like to get into "these relationships" and "they" don't.

What makes something a subculture?  Well language is one of the basics, then you've got regular meetings to socialize and specifically set aside for doing activities specifically associated with the culture.  You've got a self-name- people in the sub-culture identify it as separate. 

For me it always helps to remind myself of nearly identical modern sub-cultures: goths, renn guys, geeks, SAHMs, swingers, etc.  It gives me a good way to look into the mirror.




slavejali -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 5:14:46 PM)

Hey I'm being serial...I mean serious *grin*



thetammyjo -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 5:20:29 PM)

On the one hand you could say that it is only a subculture to those who believe they are part of it.

For me, the key issue is mutual consent.

While what I like and what I do may resemble thousands of years of human history, what I do I do because I chose to do it and because I chose to do it with an adult who must give his/her consent to being with me in this fashion.

On the other hand, subcultures do have sociological definitions that some groups of people who do BDSM fall into. Publications, political & legal activism, artists, organized events, etc.

A good book on that subject is by Ivo Dominguez, jr. called "Beneath the Skins" -- I think is an amazing book and when I read it, it helped clarify in my mind what I wanted from BDSM on a community level and what I could give back in return.

For me, those in a subculture stick together in the face of anyone opposing their core values or beliefs. There may be infighting but when it comes to being tackled by the general society, the subculture and those in it stand their ground.



slavejali -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 5:21:51 PM)

Yeah...I could see it that way..as a "club" rather than an orientation. ..puts people motivations surrounding having to "Come out" or "reveal" their club membership to outside parties in perspective really.



WyrdRich -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 5:51:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

So if the exploration, the play,  the sex, the dominant/submissive dynamic, the master/slave dynamic is and has been alive and well for eons of time and still is outside the bdsm community, what defines us as a community in and of itself?

Comments please..



     In a word, honesty.  IMO, we are up front about what we do and why we do it.  A little bit of time in the community has given me a huge new perspective on things I used to do and see others do.

    I lived for a while in a crappy thin-walled apartment and grew accustomed to the ritual of the downstairs neighbors.  He would come home on Friday night and she would start a fight with him, shrieking and throwing things and eventually he would hit her....too mild a term... He would beat her.  Then he would go across the street to the bar for an hour or so and when he came home they would have make-up sex.  Loud incredible make-up sex.  Every stinking Friday night.  My Girlfriend approached her in the laundry room after the first time we got an earful and offered to have me give him a lesson in manners and was told to mind her own F***ing business.  Were they players?  Yes, and towards the heavy end of the scale.  But the ritual they went through strikes me now as very destructive.

     We have brought this out of the subconscious realm and to me, that is what separates us.

       



NeedToUseYou -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 6:11:19 PM)

quote:

What defines us as seperate us apart from anyone else?


Depends what us you are talking about it, looking around the general BDSM community their also seems to be dozens sub-sub-cultures. Obvious one is the Poly versus Monogamy camps. Clearly split philosophy one is more similiar to the "Vanilla" world the other is less so. Kinks aren't univerals either not everyone is as intense as the next fellow. So, I'd say for some there is very little difference between a BDSM relationship and structured kinky vanilla relationship. For others BDSM is leaps and bounds and a flight to and around moon of difference.

So, why form a community, well just because you can find someone in the general populace doesn't mean you must look there. Odds are better of finding a match if one joins a "club" others join that have the same general leanings as oneself. You don't have to go to woodstock to find hippies, but you certainly would of found a hell of a lot more than just walking down the street in nowheresville U.SA..



MsIncognito -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 7:12:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich
But the ritual they went through strikes me now as very destructive.       


And why is that? Because it's not how you'd choose to play out those roles? Sure it's rather lacking in class to see to it that the entire building hears but if they were both getting of on it and getting something out of that kind of role play who are you or anyone else to say it was wrong? Seriously, if you've been around long enough to know that this community is oh-so-honest then surely you must have been around long enough to know that we are all so incredibly tolerant too, no? [;)]



ExistentialSteel -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 7:22:57 PM)

I’m not sure you can separate your historical examples from what we do now. Civilizations may have changed while the techniques of BDSM have not.  Those practicing flogging in 18th century France would not appear to have been members of the BDSM societies we have today, but the flogger still hit the back in the same patterns we use now, I bet. The use of pain as an erotic tool appears to be the common, unifying factor of BDSM through the ages and the thing that separates us.



mnottertail -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 7:30:04 PM)

Truthfully? Nothing............

One of the reasons they are still searching for the 'Holy Grail' is that it doesn't exist.

We like to think that we are a higher order species, and we put on airs, our women wear peacock feathers in their hats and men wear linen shorts, and we think our shit don't stink but farts give us away constantly, and we gotta do something with our four score and seven. So we make believe.

Ron 



CanadianGuy -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 7:31:45 PM)

I wanted to reply to this, but I can't get past the fact that your post sounds fairly jaded, as well as a little judgmental. :(



cadence -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 7:44:27 PM)

I think you are correct, NeedToUseYou. We define ourselves in order to find one another. Sure, we have our differences. But the likelihood of finding someone with whom to have a symbiotic relationship is much higher. I even found someone I already knew in my vanilla life, but couldn't otherwise have discovered that we shared these desires. Suspected, maybe. But not have ever known because we were afraid to mention it. When I found this site, it was that sense of coming home. Some people are just players. But even they may find other players they enjoy relating to in their limited way. I am so glad I found Collarme. I have no interest in the vanilla "dating sites" anymore.



WyrdRich -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 8:31:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsIncognito

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich
But the ritual they went through strikes me now as very destructive.       


And why is that? Because it's not how you'd choose to play out those roles? Sure it's rather lacking in class to see to it that the entire building hears but if they were both getting of on it and getting something out of that kind of role play who are you or anyone else to say it was wrong? Seriously, if you've been around long enough to know that this community is oh-so-honest then surely you must have been around long enough to know that we are all so incredibly tolerant too, no? [;)]


      Well, they were obviously getting something out of it.  But it isn't role-play unless you can admit you are playing a role.  It had to be something they both needed but I don't think they ever talked about it or negotiated anything.  Mostly they yelled at each other.
     Within the context of the question, "What makes us different?"  my thinking is that these needs are going to get fulfilled somehow.  In the community we can express them openly while in the 'nilla world the subconscious finds a way.

     And yes, I do think that police at the door, broken collarbones, cuts from broken glass and frightened children next door are destructive.

    



MasterCoyote -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 8:38:12 PM)

I don't know about the rest of you - but I'm a unique individual - just like everyone else!

Seriously - what sets us apart?  Well - perhaps the fact that what we do is both condemned and misunderstood by all the "normal" people out there.  It forces us misfits together, where we can (hopefully) find trust, comfort, and pleasure in the company of others....and get needs fulfilled that cannot be satisfied elsewhere...



FangsNfeet -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 9:10:59 PM)

What separates the bdsm community from everyone else?

By everyone else do you mean the Vanilla Community?

When a vanilla person tells you they are having sex, we normally think "Well that's nice." And don't put much thought into it. If you tell a vanilla person about having sex while being forced and tied down, slaped in the face, blind folded, and called dirty names, they'll think we're sick in the head. Vanilla is highly more judgmental on how people have sex.

According to Freud, all sex is normal sex. It's not having sex that makes you weird.



starymists -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 9:21:00 PM)

I think that just as there are very wide differences in how individuals actually engage in lifestyle activities, there is a wide variety of what different people would identify as what makes the BDSM community seperate and distinct.
 
For myself, having started in the lifestyle before BDSM, it was simply a way to find others who were of like mind. It was a way to build friendships and support networks with others who were into the same kinds of things. People that you could talk to when different things happened. Then, when I had a question, I couldn't just log into the internet and/or pop onto a message board and post. I had to have people I could call, meetings I could go to where these questions could be addressed. So in that time and space, it set me up a place to go and be safe in exploring this lifestyle I wanted to be a part of.
 
I also tend to think that even with the internet, a lot of the same things apply. We have places we can go and meet others, talk through questions, concerns, identify solutions to problems with people of like mind and experiences. I certainly can't imagine saying over the water cooler at work "So the boyfriend paddled me last night and now my butt is bruised. Know anything that can help with the bruising?" I equally can't imagine going into a bar, having a few drinks with a new guy and saying "So I like to be tied up and paddled. Interested?" It simply allows us to come together to find what we want and need in a safe, sane and consentual manner. Doesn't make us unique, special, different. Just gives us some common ground on which to build :)



truesub4u -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 10:29:50 PM)

Hmmm.... nice to see a serious mind thinker post again. Debatable but at the same time, not. Everyones got their different views of how everything works for everyone. But at the same time, more agree than disagree with the whole. Well all agree there's suppose to be trust, communitcation, safety, respect to some degree. About the only thing most disagree on is definitions, and degrees. That's when the debates, arguments, and sometimes flammings enter in. Nothing wrong with that really. Just either have to grow thicker skin, or join in reguardless of who agrees or not.

But to actually define us from others? No.. not really. Each "Group" of people have their own norm. BDSM differes from Gor. But to what degree really? Goth, Vampirsm, and such, how much do they really differ from us or them? That's like trying to define what seperates East from the West. North from the South. Dynamics. Nothing more but dynamics. Who.. what... when.... where... and how. We change who we are as we grow. We change the how we live, where we live, who with, when we choose, the what.... well.. that's up to the ones involved in the rest of it all.

That really doesn't seperate us from anyone. Just the end does. And only if we choose too have it so. And if we so choose it, it's because we like to know there are others out there, that for the most part, think like us. Live like us. Can relate. Just as in other groups. We all know this group, maybe another one or two. And can relate to more than one. But it's because we choose to. Where as if there's a seperation, it's because THEY choose not to look, live, or even understand. So there for THEY outcast. We didn't outcast, they did. We can live in their group. Should we choose to. And most do on a daily basis. And they don't even know it for the most part.

Ok, i'm rambling. Guess bottom line in my own personal opinion..... nothing really defines us as being seperate or apart from anyone else... they did. As for the their reason.... fear. Refusal to be open or wanting to even remotely go and explore something that might make them an outcast as well. I do not think of us as being outcast.. not as much as I do them.... LOL But like I said... this is only how I look at it. Not everyone else will.



SusanofO -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 11:12:52 PM)

jali - I am going to bed now - but I just had to tell you I really like a lot of what you write. Off the top of my head I'd say it's simply another 'sub-culture' (if we're talking about placing it in an  historical context) - which is actually what you just said anyway, he. I am too tired to write anything in depth now, and your thoughts deserve a more elaborately well-thought out response than that one - but it's a really interesting topic. - Susan



SoulfulSadism -> RE: What defines us as separate us apart from anyone else? (4/10/2006 11:17:23 PM)

I will try and disregard the jadedly-cynical undercurrents of your words, and try and concentrate purely on the literal content as I see it: " What separates the bdsm community from everyone else?"

Many things in life are ultimately a matter of degree. 'Vanilla' couples do roleplaying; they act out fantasies; 80% of straight women want a confident assertive intelligent man as their mate. And it's a fairly safe bet a 'good' dominant would have a healthy dose of confidence and assertiveness and leadership.

Point being - speaking philosophically alone, you can interpret it as simply a matter of  degree . Or you may elect to say "time is short, gotta find the lifestyle closest to my heart and mind". Fair enough - either way - do your thing.

Personally speaking - I don't give a damn about whether or not we are apart. I am gonna do what I like, get what I want - I am gonna live in 'my and her world' when I am home. And as long as it's a good world between us - nothing else matters.

Where bdsm did help me was ... long back, as all these urges to dominate, lead, take charge, there was confusion. And guilt. And lust. And intensity bubbling under the surface. Discovering the world of bdsm told me 'Ohk, thanks god, I am not a loused up freak - I have a right to feel the way I am feeling.'



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