RE: A choice.. or a decision?

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IronBear -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/7/2010 12:24:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear What I'm reading through this thread is the question; Do you chase or wait to be chased (probably after berlying the waters to get the target's attention. Now I'm really a shy sort of chap, who from an early age had issues dealing with rejection ergo don't put yourself in the position of being rejected (better to be the ejector than the ejectee). Once I had figured the female hunting game was to attract a male's attention from across the room, and then ignore him so he would be biologically driven to make the moves (chase), I chose to reverse this process and turn the tables on women I was attracted to (or lusted after). I discovered that a women often can not stand being ignored which is what I would do after the eye catching and smiling across a crowded room thing. I'd be sitting drink in hand obviously alone and waiting for my prey to approach.. VWEG Well bugger me dead but it jolly well worked for years it worked consistently. I made a decision and chose to invite the lady to decide if she wanted to choose me. I don't pretend to know how other people's minds work, so I suppose it's possible that you're right about how some women "can not stand" being ignored because their expectations are for male pursuit. For me, the moves you describe making are the only ones that can get my interest, but it's not because I can't stand being ignored and not pursued, it's because I am only attracted to men who are shy and who prefer to be pursued. A man who shows his interest and then turns shy and invites me to do the pursuing, willingly becoming my prey and my prize, is one that does catch my interest. I'll have that dance with him, and decline to dance with men who approach me, because they're flagging the wrong colors. Though it's interesting that you're a dominant. Most of the men I've seen do these kinds of behaviors are submissive. Presumably chase or be chased is one more dynamic that is not necessarily tied strictly to one side of the kneel. I've heard this before too. It has surprised some women who were dominant in nature (not kinky though). Perhaps part of my shyness, stemed from as a child I was surrounded by powerful, dominant people who were over achievers and just believed I could never stand as their equal. It may even have been the reason I chose professions with high physical risk trying to prove my worth. Along the way, I learned to overcome low self esteem and deal with the sundry elements attached to it. I would say though my 5 years in 'Nam helped me develop and grow up much faster and more efficiently that possibly I would have normally. I'll hold my own socially and in most other areas of life but my one failing in this sence is I still never believe i am attractive to women and fail completely to read the signs indication they are interested in me (or I fall into the trap of dithering with the question" Am I seeing what is there or what I want to be there?) When I decide to explore usually it has been too late and the windor of oportunity gone. Similarly, I'm an empath and so many people who know me can not understand how I survived the years in combat zones with the pain and suffering and stayed sane. My comment has been "Who said I was sane to start with?"

leadership527 -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/7/2010 12:29:33 PM)
quote: Porcelaine said: I'm generally drawn to the one that knocks me off kilter who refuses to play the game. Someone who's character and presence don't necessitate such antics. He knows himself and challenges me to do the same. We don't hide behind roles or pretenses, but relate openly instead. As am I. Strength, honesty, honor, integrity, courage... those are the things I need in a partner. How predictable that you and I would see this in similar terms. There's a reason we like each other chuckles. After Carol and I had been together for a while, she (predictably) asked me, "So what attracted you to me?" There is exactly one moment when the hook was set firmly in my mouth. I had asked her, "Do you want to go out dancing with me?" She thought about it and answered, "Wow, that's scary.... OK." What I saw was a woman able to be honest with herself and with me. A person who was courageous enough to be vulnerable. Those 4 words of hers were what lit her up on my radar as someone who might be a life partner for me.

leadership527 -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/7/2010 12:49:10 PM)
quote: IronBear Said: but my one failing in this sence is I still never believe i am attractive to women. chuckles Well, you're not alone there. Although in more recent years, I have had to bow to reality. It was Carol who pointed out to me some years ago that "For a guy who isn't very attractive to women, you sure do have a lot of them around you all the time. You've also never spent any significant time being single. How odd. smirk" Being the hugely pragmatic engineer sort that I am, I kind of had to accept that statement at face value. I still don't "get it" in my heart, but I accept the reality of it.

porcelaine -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/7/2010 12:54:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 As am I. Strength, honesty, honor, integrity, courage... those are the things I need in a partner. How predictable that you and I would see this in similar terms. There's a reason we like each other chuckles. Great minds think alike. lol I don't equate this with the mating game. I believe societal ideas, perceptions of aggression (in women), fear, insecurity, ego, and the desire for a guaranteed outcome are contributors to that approach quote: What I saw was a woman able to be honest with herself and with me. A person who was courageous enough to be vulnerable. Those 4 words of hers were what lit her up on my radar as someone who might be a life partner for me. It took me a long time to get that. But it is one of the few lessons I will never forget. He makes that admission possible because of who he is. Being vulnerable and uncertain is alright. As a matter of fact, when I feel it I always steal another glance. I know I'm dealing with someone different; a person that compels the risk not its avoidance. ~porcelaine

Missokyst -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/7/2010 1:31:10 PM)
I totally enjoy seeing when other are as anal as I am about examining the why's of how they came to be who they are now. quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear I've heard this before too. It has surprised some women who were dominant in nature (not kinky though). Perhaps part of my shyness, stemed from as a child I was surrounded by powerful, dominant people who were over achievers and just believed I could never stand as their equal. It may even have been the reason I chose professions with high physical risk trying to prove my worth. Along the way, I learned to overcome low self esteem and deal with the sundry elements attached to it. I would say though my 5 years in 'Nam helped me develop and grow up much faster and more efficiently that possibly I would have normally. I'll hold my own socially and in most other areas of life but my one failing in this sence is I still never believe i am attractive to women and fail completely to read the signs indication they are interested in me (or I fall into the trap of dithering with the question" Am I seeing what is there or what I want to be there?) When I decide to explore usually it has been too late and the windor of oportunity gone. Similarly, I'm an empath and so many people who know me can not understand how I survived the years in combat zones with the pain and suffering and stayed sane. My comment has been "Who said I was sane to start with?"

sublizzie -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/7/2010 6:24:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst When a man approaches you, how much is your choice, and how much is his decision (aka pursual). Since I have never developed the ability to read anyone's interest in me unless it was slapped in my face (usually not literally) s/he has to make it perfectly clear that s/he is interested in me. I don't know how to flirt or entice men so I have no clue how to choose. If someone were to look interested and then ignore me (ala IronBear) I would figure they decided I wasn't worth their effort and slink away to lick my wounds in private (if I had been interested as well). I need to be actively pursued or I am not aware I'm being allowed a choice.

LadyAngelika -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/7/2010 8:10:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Missy you are not alone....Read these replies closely. Not one of these women are the pursuer. They seem to be resigned to accept only those men that show an interest not to pursue those that they have an interest in. They talk a nice game but the end result is not so different then what you have personally experienced. Take care. Yet another indication that you don't know the first thing about dominant women. Nice try though, but way off base. - LA

osf -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/7/2010 9:37:08 PM)
Every time you let someone make a choice/decision for you, you have made a choice/decision

Kana -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/8/2010 7:22:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: osf Every time you let someone make a choice/decision for you, you have made a choice/decision What's the old song line, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

LadySilver0523 -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/8/2010 9:41:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer It's one strategy, completely valid and workable for you. Nothing wrong with it. Personally I can't stand being pursued aggressively. A guy tries that kind of move with me and he's out of my life. It's an instant no-chemistry turnoff for me, almost like he's the wrong gender. Guys go totally off my radar when they act like that; from then on maybe we can be friends if he backs off, but there's never going to be any romantic interest for me. If they don't respect that and stop pursuing, then there's not going to be any relationship at all because then they've crossed into "total asshole" or even "stalker" territory. Now if a man can make himself available and authentically vulnerable, clearly interested in being pursued but just a bit shy, he can get my ears perking right up. That's yummy to me, and it wakes up the primal predator in my nature. So he's likely to get pounced if he's sent enough clear signals of consent. It can be a delicate dance, but the guys who can do it and not step over the line are very desirable to me. Ultimately a relationship or even a hookup has to be both people's choice, or it's called rape (or at the least, coercion) and it's not consensual. I need to be the pursuer in order to get interested, but I also need him to make his own interest and consent reasonably clear in subtle ways. If he doesn't, I won't keep pushing, because I don't want to be the asshole. I like your style. And I totally agree about a man that shows interest and vunrability as well as a bit on the shy side. Those type totally turn me on when I'm feeling frisky and Dominate :) That being said; You couldn't have sumed it up any better. grins Many blessings, Silver

IronBear -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/8/2010 5:05:32 PM)
Talking about vulnerability. I have a good mate, top class bricklayer/builder, hard working, honest, and honourable. rather looks like a miniature Hulk Hogan, who after his long term marriage broke up used to come to social functions with us but was never sure how to talk to women with out putting his foot in his mouth. If a lady asked him how he was, he'd reply sincerely; "I'm hungry". Now this bloke couldn't boil water so he was being honest. Always well presented though, good house keeper too. Surprising how many women, some of them pretty hard bitten too after years on the single again scene, fell over them selves wanting to be with him. Just goes to show that even a man's man can have success in the dating stakes even without a clue how to play the game.

SailingBum -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/8/2010 5:13:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: ORIGINAL: osf Every time you let someone make a choice/decision for you, you have made a choice/decision What's the old song line, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." Yep yep no decision is still a decision... BadOne

IronBear -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/8/2010 5:21:39 PM)
Yep and even involuntary actions are the result of a decision/choice such as peeing or having a crap ~~~ You decider to pee and choose where to pee. You decide it's time to crap and choose where to or on whom you will crap.

cassandria -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/8/2010 6:23:17 PM)
Online, I'm a little more brave I guess...if I notice someone posting who really is humorous, sharply intelligent, and I read his profile and I just...I like..enough....then I might message him. I mean, how else can he know that I'm admiring? Besides, most people like to be complimented and I usually can come up with a reason to say something nice :) But...I will completely admit to a preference of being pursued. It still gives me the choice of how I respond, but it allows me to feel this old-fashioned sense of femininity too. I was always taught that "girls don't call boys", and I guess it still registers within me. It's him, taking the lead, from the beginning. At a party or dinner or whatever, I tend to be more shy and reserved, unless I'm with closer friends, engaged in conversation perhaps. It would be unusual for me to approach a man, but I might ask about him...just, I need SOME kind of encouragement to know that I'm not stepping on any toes or anything, doing something wrong. What if he's with someone, but she's just not there? I mean, I don't want to be disrespectful.

leadership527 -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/8/2010 6:36:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear Yep and even involuntary actions are the result of a decision/choice such as peeing or having a crap ~~~ You decider to pee and choose where to pee. You decide it's time to crap and choose where to or on whom you will crap. Ridiculous. Reality imposes limits on us. Go ahead and choose to stop breathing for the next 5 minutes. Let me know how that goes. As much as I get it that it's politically correct to talk about choice because choice leads to consent, that doesn't make it true for all of us.

IronBear -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/8/2010 9:51:16 PM)
Actually Jeff we are both correct and I was just waiting for someone to reply questioning the logic. I can choose not to breath, I can even decide not to breath (especially if the environment isn't conducing to breathing). After a while and especially if I loose consciousness, my body will over ride my choice and decision and decide to live so I start breathing. My point is that you can always make choices even if they are hard wired in you, you can choose to over-ride those hard wired reflexes (auto choices). I will grant that we are entering into the more philosphic areas of semantics here but you know me and that I am a very literal person. BTW 5 minutes not breathing is not impossible for those so trained for my it would indeed verge on the improbable.

leadership527 -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/9/2010 7:07:43 AM)
I don't see it the same way and for Carol & I at least, it's both disingenuous and irresponsible to think of things on a "choice" basis. Saying that Carol could "choose" to not be mine is not really representative of this reality and a really convenient way for me to shirk responsibility for the path I've led us. When you have a sufficiently dominant personality in contact with a sufficiently submissive one, then literally the concept of choice becomes tenuous at best. Carol would have to "choose" to be someone other than she actually is in order for things to be different between us. Is that really a possible choice? To use LA's terminology, I think that the concepts of "choice" and "consent" work out really well for people who are dom/sub by relationship orientation. I think they are less applicable for those who are dom/sub by personality. I think when the personality spread becomes large enough, then those concepts become misleading at best and dangerous at worst. I'm sorry but I'm holding firm on this one and I don't I think that this is a pointless philosophical discussion. Not everyone fits into the "by relationship orientation" bucket. Hell YOU don't fit into that bucket.

porcelaine -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/9/2010 7:24:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 To use LA's terminology, I think that the concepts of "choice" and "consent" work out really well for people who are dom/sub by relationship orientation. I think they are less applicable for those who are dom/sub by personality. I think when the personality spread becomes large enough, then those concepts become misleading at best and dangerous at worst. Okay, this is a personal one for you and I. Do you recall the question you presented last week? Why? Surely you know that my current status isn't due to lack or an inability to find what I seek. Not exactly. It's a choice. Now we can spin this thing a million ways but in the end the truth is what it is. That doesn't change my makeup or my ability to do such. Or lessen the desire at all. But it does suggest that I have elected not to act on it. For whatever reasons I might assign. It is a choice. Why? I can pinpoint several options to decide otherwise that I did not take. [;)] ~porcelaine

leadership527 -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/9/2010 7:34:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine Okay, this is a personal one for you and I. Do you recall the question you presented last week? Why? Surely you know that my current status isn't due to lack or an inability to find what I seek. Not exactly. It's a choice. Now we can spin this thing a million ways but in the end the truth is what it is. OK, I went back and re-read the OP and see that I was on the wrong track. The question presented was about the initial selection of the mate, not submitting to that person. Yup, even for Carol and even with a seriously dominant personality, it would take more than casual contact before I'd begin to question the appropriateness of "choice". When we first met, she had plenty of choice. She absolutely chose me.

Andalusite -> RE: A choice.. or a decision? (6/9/2010 8:15:37 AM)
Kana, Rush's "Freewill" came out in 1980, but I hadn't really though of it as old. [&o] I didn't hear it until the late 90's, so I suppose it seems newer to me. Missokyst, continuing to push for private play at his home rather than public play after me expressing discomfort would have scared me off, and made me felt he couldn't "read" me in play, and wouldn't respect limits in that context either. I would have been much more clear in my discomfort at his second attempt. If he brought it up a third time, I would most likely have canceled the playdate and either found someone else to go with, or made other plans. It would't really matter what D/s or BDSM orientation he was - plenty of men who identify as submissive are actually more domineering than many Dominant men I know. I'm not saying that you should have had that response, just that's how I would most likely have reacted.

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