RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/11/2010 1:43:22 PM)

Was there a situation in the past where the then powerful Catholic church declared war on science, a situation where those who were interested in the sciences as they were known in the day had to meet in secret to avoid the suspicion of the church.When scientists were found, the church executed them usually in the same way they dealt with those accused of witchcraft, purification by fire. If this is correct, then to me, it comes across as the church feared science as it did alternative spiritualities. Why, I can only conclude they sought to eradicate both types of people because they feared the more popular either of these things became, the less authority the church would have, and the church for a long time was just that, authority and with that power, wealth and riches, they used their authority to educate and control. Science then was taken as a threat to the status quo.




vincentML -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/11/2010 2:09:54 PM)

Galileo of course. Also Spinoza's works were on the List of Prohibited Books of the Roman Catholic Church. As were those of Johanne Keppler and Giordano Bruno. But I can't say they went so far as to execute them. Ya think?




NorthernGent -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/11/2010 2:19:58 PM)

Once upon a time...burning astronomers was the right thing to do...for the church. Galileo got into a spot of trouble as did Descartes who published his works anonymously for fear of reprisal.....but...

Thomas Hobbes pissed off a lot of people....nothing to do with religion......the monarchy wasn't happy because he said that the people have a right to rebelliion....and the church wasn't happy because he said the king is the owner of the scriptures. And John Locke....a devout man...a Puritan......fled for his life...and published his works in a bizarre code..a hidden ink.....

It was the same then as it is now....piss off the establishment....religious or otherwise....and you have a problem you really do not need in your life.....




thompsonx -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/11/2010 2:23:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Galileo of course. Also Spinoza's works were on the List of Prohibited Books of the Roman Catholic Church. As were those of Johanne Keppler and Giordano Bruno. But I can't say they went so far as to execute them. Ya think?


If I remember correctly wasnt spinoza's family run out of portugal by the inquisition? The catholic church was responsible for getting the jews to excomunicate him. Yeah I think you are right the church did not care for people who thought for themselves.




Politesub53 -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/11/2010 2:29:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

That's pretty convenient.  Now, for the record, I am not religious.  I have said time and time again that I presonally feel that religion in general does more to impede spiritual growth and enlightenment than it does to foster it. 

The Papal inquisition was religious.  The Spanish inquisition was political.  Let's drill it down to it's core... the motivation was greed.  Pure and simple.  As was the US civil war and most wars ever fought and human suffering is not limited to war.  That religion is used as a cover-up for that greed does not make religion itself the cause. 


Both the Papal and Spanish inquisitions were both carried out to supress religions that were not approved of. How you make that nothing to do with religion I just dont know.


quote:

Do you think that if everyone on the planet woke up tomorrow and said "Well I'll be dipped in sunshine!  There really isn't a God!  Free at last!"  that the world would suddenly be free of human suffering at the hands of humankind?  Greed, lust for power, envy, bigoty, hatred, are human conditions and are equally dispersed among the atheist and the theist alike.


You are correct, none of the above will disappear. That still has nothing to do with the fact that world history shows us much misery and killing has been carried out by religious people, in the name of religion. Not for greed, or money, but purely the belief that one religion is superior to another.




vincentML -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/11/2010 8:18:36 PM)

quote:

Both the Papal and Spanish inquisitions were both carried out to supress religions that were not approved of. How you make that nothing to do with religion I just dont know.


"The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic tribunal for discovery and punishment of heresy, which was marked by the severity of questioning and punishment and lack of rights afforded to the accused.

While many people associate the Inquisition with Spain and Portugal, it was actually instituted by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) in Rome. A later pope, Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition, in 1233, to combat the heresy of the Abilgenses, a religious sect in France. By 1255, the Inquisition was in full gear throughout Central and Western Europe; although it was never instituted in England or Scandinavia.

Initially a tribunal would open at a location and an edict of grace would be published calling upon those who are conscious of heresy to confess; after a period of grace, the tribunal officers could make accusations. Those accused of heresy were sentenced at an auto de fe, Act of Faith. Clergyman would sit at the proceedings and would deliver the punishments. Punishments included confinement to dungeons, physical abuse and torture. Those who reconciled with the church were still punished and many had their property confiscated, as well as were banished from public life. Those who never confessed were burned at the stake without strangulation; those who did confess were strangled first. During the 16th and 17th centuries, attendance at auto de fe reached as high as the attendance at bullfights.

In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews. However, disputes about Maimonides’ books (which addressed the synthesis of Judaism and other cultures) provided a pretext for harassing Jews and, in 1242, the Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake took place in France.

In 1481 the Inquisition started in Spain and ultimately surpassed the medieval Inquisition, in both scope and intensity. Conversos (Secret Jews) and New Christians were targeted because of their close relations to the Jewish community, many of whom were Jews in all but their name. Fear of Jewish influence led Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand to write a petition to the Pope asking permission to start an Inquisition in Spain. In 1483 Tomas de Torquemada became the inquisitor-general for most of Spain, he set tribunals in many cities. Also heading the Inquisition in Spain were two Dominican monks, Miguel de Morillo and Juan de San Martin.

First, they arrested Conversos and notable figures in Seville; in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. An Inquisition Tribunal was set up in Ciudad Real, where 100 Conversos were condemned, and it was moved to Toledo in 1485. Between 1486-1492, 25 auto de fes were held in Toledo, 467 people were burned at the stake and others were imprisoned. The Inquisition finally made its way to Barcelona, where it was resisted at first because of the important place of Spanish Conversos in the economy and society.

More than 13,000 Conversos were put on trial during the first 12 years of the Spanish Inquisition. Hoping to eliminate ties between the Jewish community and Conversos, the Jews of Spain were expelled in 1492.."

Interesting reading this ...

Not directed at anyone. Just a general observation. It is so easy to speculate about motives when we are looking at labels and categories from long, long ago but the inhumane horror slaps you in the face when you confront the details. Can you imagine finding yourself among the targeted group when the Office came to your city?




GotSteel -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/12/2010 12:59:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
I'm not going past 1 mate because this is going to turn into the sort of affair that I don't need in my life.

I'm sorry that you feel that way, I can see 1 making you twitch enough that you don't really think about it but I think that the rest of the post might really be worth reading for you especially part 3.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
3. Despite the rhetoric, it's not the case that god is or your existence is meaningless. When a theist begins to doubt it is common for them to have this fear that existence is meaningless etc. and people turn back to their theism for comfort a sense of meaning etc. However, if you actually manage to deconvert you will get over that fear.






GotSteel -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/12/2010 1:16:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream
You do realize how harmful mri's are right?

Apparently not, do tell?

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream
They also do not show all that goes on in us. You poor thing so bonded with the glaring white light of the hospital. Your childhood was likely rife with trauma, neglect and all sorts of creepy things infants ought not go into.

Love will win in the end darling and all your mumbo jumbo you rely so heavily on will pale in its presence.

Well you said that my "crap needs addressing" but you didn't address my position at all, you mostly just spent the post insulting me. Why do you feel the need to stick around just to do that? Maybe you should ask yourself why you can't actually address any of my points, why are your responses nothing but insults and assertions of denial?  




eyesopened -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/12/2010 4:23:35 AM)

Vincent,
Thanks for the interesting read.  I had some time this morning and did some additional reading.
http://countrystudies.us/spain/7.htm

I would seem then that the Spanish Inquistion had a dual motive.  Ferdinand and Isabella fiercely believed that political unity (and loyalty) were directly connected to religious unity.  That the victims' property and wealth were conviscated in this horror led me to believe that greed was a major motivator for Tomas de Torquemada.
I enjoy learning.  I stand corrected for the Spanish Inquisition although there appears to be a blending of motivators for it.

My original premise was that religion itself has not caused more human suffering than has purely secular motives of greed, envy, hatred, bigotry, etc.  I stand by that premise. 

We will never know the exact numbers of people killed in the Spanish Inquistion.  It's estimated at 9,000 although there are some who add an estimate of those who may have died while in prison during that time.

In 1984 Union Carbide killed nearly 3,000 and injured 200,000 and the suffering from that explosion continues to this day.   http://www.london.edu/assets/documents/facultyandresearch/Freek_Vermeulen_Union_Carbide_case.pdf
And I wouldn't say science is the cause of these deaths.  Science isn't the cause but science sure has made death and suffering much more efficient.




Politesub53 -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/12/2010 4:34:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

My original premise was that religion itself has not caused more human suffering than has purely secular motives of greed, envy, hatred, bigotry, etc.  I stand by that premise. 

We will never know the exact numbers of people killed in the Spanish Inquistion.  It's estimated at 9,000 although there are some who add an estimate of those who may have died while in prison during that time.

In 1984 Union Carbide killed nearly 3,000 and injured 200,000 and the suffering from that explosion continues to this day.   http://www.london.edu/assets/documents/facultyandresearch/Freek_Vermeulen_Union_Carbide_case.pdf
And I wouldn't say science is the cause of these deaths.  Science isn't the cause but science sure has made death and suffering much more efficient.


I know our views differ, and respect your standpoint. The reason I say religion has caused death and suffering is as follows.

To use your two examples. Bophal was an accident, caused by a mixture or negligence and greed. Religious wars, and the inquisitions, are caused by religious ideology. I fully agree some "religious wars" have been caused by greed, but many, and I would say most in Europe, have not. Hence my stance.




Aneirin -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/12/2010 4:44:28 AM)

I agree to an extent that religion is not the sole reason for the ills of mankind, I say this, as there are other religions that many follow, perhaps even older religions than the Biblical, where conquest was achieved through the usual means and not attached to any difference in spirituality. But of my understanding with specifically religions based on the Biblical, violence has been committed in the name of a religion. But that religion might just be and probably is likely just a vehicle for many to achieve their personal aims, which leaves me with the understanding that if a religion can be bent to violence, then what kind of religion is it.

A wild idea perhaps, but if it was a mass religion was to be created today by the learned and wealthy, just what kind of laws and interpretations would come from that religion based upon the people of today ?




kdsub -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/12/2010 9:47:45 AM)

Those who blame religion for all the ills of man are not thinking their beliefs through. If there were a deity then they would have a leg to stand on. It would be a God or Gods demands of mankind that causes death and destruction. Then their belief that religion was the bane of mankind would be true.

If however, as they believe, there is no God then it is man himself causing the death and destruction. This would mean that if the false thought of religion could be removed from the human mind the killing and destruction would continue unabated for other thoughts or reasons.

As I’ve always said the fault is within us not a belief in God.

I believe religion, rather than the cause, is in fact a limiting factor in our savageness.

Butch




Rule -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/12/2010 9:48:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia.

Interesting. Those five thousand saved their lives and stopped practicing circumcision?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Hoping to eliminate ties between the Jewish community and Conversos, the Jews of Spain were expelled in 1492."

Them Spanish people were benevolent.




vincentML -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/12/2010 9:48:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened


I would seem then that the Spanish Inquistion had a dual motive.  Ferdinand and Isabella fiercely believed that political unity (and loyalty) were directly connected to religious unity.  That the victims' property and wealth were conviscated in this horror led me to believe that greed was a major motivator for Tomas de Torquemada.
I enjoy learning.  I stand corrected for the Spanish Inquisition although there appears to be a blending of motivators for it.

My original premise was that religion itself has not caused more human suffering than has purely secular motives of greed, envy, hatred, bigotry, etc.  I stand by that premise. 


Hello eyesopened. I would not argue with your premise about dual motives. Reading in history, it is difficult to unravel and seperate the drive for secular conquest, power and greed from the religious imperialism of Christianity since 326 c.e. when Constantine bade his soldiers to tie their knives to form a cross with their spears as they went into battle. And don't get me started on Columbus and Pizarro. I read a long Western history of mutual accommodation between church and state in the cause of conquest and expansion.

Ironically, it is rumoured that Tomas was of Jewish descent and that Pope Sixtus IV picked him to be Grand Inquisitor in the hopes he would be lenient with the Conversos. I dunno. I am a little skeptical. There is a persistent rumour that Hitler was a Jew descendent as well, although I don't understand who benefits from that story. I suspect Allied war propaganda. So, may also be the case with Tomas.


quote:

In 1984 Union Carbide killed nearly 3,000 and injured 200,000 and the suffering from that explosion continues to this day.   http://www.london.edu/assets/documents/facultyandresearch/Freek_Vermeulen_Union_Carbide_case.pdf
And I wouldn't say science is the cause of these deaths.  Science isn't the cause but science sure has made death and suffering much more efficient.


Well sure. Absolutely right. Science in the service of armies, kings, and nations. Alfred Nobel invented dynamite and J Robert Oppenheimer developed the fission bomb. But it was a Pope who drew the line to settle the colonialist conflict between Portugal and Spain in the New World so that conversions could be implemented in both territories. And it was a Pope who kept silent during the Holocaust. (Sorry, I am in an anti-poppa mood of late)




Rule -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/12/2010 9:56:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
it was a Pope who kept silent during the Holocaust. (Sorry, I am in an anti-poppa mood of late)

When JP I was murdered, everyone ought to have comprehended that there is something fishy going on in the Vatican.




vincentML -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/12/2010 10:04:57 AM)




quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia.

quote:

Rule: Interesting. Those five thousand saved their lives and stopped practicing circumcision?


Apparently, they regrew their foreskins. [8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Hoping to eliminate ties between the Jewish community and Conversos, the Jews of Spain were expelled in 1492."

quote:

Them Spanish people were benevolent
.

As benevolent as Andrew Jackson was when he forced the Cherokee and other tribes to march westward on the Trail of Tears after taking their lands away from them.

As benevolent as Hitler when he allowed emigration of Jews with only the possessions they could carry in the 1930s

The Jews of Spain were hard-pressed to find other lands to take them in. The Pope had to be coerced to allow some into Rome. Eventually, they were settled into an over-crowded ghetto next to the Tiber at the foot of Vatican hill and kept there on and off for 300 years as degraded "witnesses" to the "truth" of Christianity, forced to listen to Catholic sermons and withstand continued attempts to convert them.






vincentML -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/12/2010 10:07:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
it was a Pope who kept silent during the Holocaust. (Sorry, I am in an anti-poppa mood of late)

When JP I was murdered, everyone ought to have comprehended that there is something fishy going on in the Vatican.



I'm sorry. Bring me up to date on this. Thank you, Rule.

Nevermind... I read it on internet. Very interesting. Thirty three days. No wonder I missed him. zoom zoom, yur dead!




Rule -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/12/2010 10:36:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Apparently, they regrew their foreskins.

That is not possible, vincentML.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
As benevolent as Andrew Jackson was when he forced the Cherokee and other tribes to march westward on the Trail of Tears after taking their lands away from them.

That is a subject for another thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
As benevolent as Hitler when he allowed emigration of Jews with only the possessions they could carry in the 1930s

He did? What is remarkable about that? I suspect that Jews emigrated before that as well, not so? Also nearly all people who emigrate do so with only the possessions they can carry, not so?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The Jews of Spain were hard-pressed to find other lands to take them in. The Pope had to be coerced to allow some into Rome. Eventually, they were settled into an over-crowded ghetto next to the Tiber at the foot of Vatican hill and kept there on and off for 300 years as degraded "witnesses" to the "truth" of Christianity, forced to listen to Catholic sermons and withstand continued attempts to convert them.


As I already said in another thread: Abrahamic Jews are stubborn. They persist in opposing the Divine. The Divine sent them the Greeks to force them to stop their perverted practice of circumcision and they fought the Greeks. The Divine sent them Jesus to stop their practice of circumcision and they crucified Jesus. The Divine sent them Saint Paul to admonish them to stop their practice of circumcision and they opposed Paul. The Divine sent them the Romans to force them to stop their practice of circumcision and they fought the Romans. The Divine sent them the prophet Mohammed to force them to stop their practice of circumcision and they fought the prophet Mohammed and subverted the Arabs into adopting their perverted practice of circumcision. The Divine sent them the Spanish Christians to force them to stop their perverted practice of circumcision and they fought the Spanish Christians.

Now various people may point the finger and lay the blame at the feet of the Greeks and the Romans and Jesus and Paul and the prophet Mohammed and at the Spanish Christians, but I say that there is only one single common denominator in all this: circumcised penises.

Verily no other population has defied the Divine, whom the Abrahamic Jews falsely profess to worship, as much as have the Abrahamic Jews.

I am Rule, and I call on all who have practiced circumcision to stop having their male progeny circumcised. Stop opposing the Divine.




heartcream -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/12/2010 11:50:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Apparently not, do tell?

Well you said that my "crap needs addressing" but you didn't address my position at all, you mostly just spent the post insulting me. Why do you feel the need to stick around just to do that? Maybe you should ask yourself why you can't actually address any of my points, why are your responses nothing but insults and assertions of denial?  



Your points/positions are wholly full of hot air. Maybe take your own advice and ask yourself why. As far as I am concerned there is barely anything to address. You have blinders on, cant help you there. You are staunchly entrenched in your pov and are entitled to it. Have at it mate.

If you cared truly about the human body and wanted to check out the harm caused by mri's I am sure your big brain can figure out how to do that. I am so not in the mood at the moment.





Rule -> RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science (6/12/2010 2:01:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine
I believe that eventually science will overcome religion but not because science can define god.

Science observes and defines Nature. Science has proved that Nature demands survival of the fittest.

Religion is destined to fail because it is a MAN MADE INSTITUTION.

This article clearly demonstrates how religious teachings are self destructive, THUS......DEFYING THE LAWS OF NATURE.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/many-muslim-women-vitamin-d-deficient

That is sad. All as a consequence of them mutilating the penises of their male progeny. That is the universe / the Divine / the evolution algorithm exacting due retribution - and these women paying the price for their perversion and blasphemy.




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