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RE: Snakes? - 6/9/2010 6:37:36 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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The UK is no boring no deadly creatures anywhere.

Imagine however a world with killer garden snails?

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RE: Snakes? - 6/9/2010 6:40:58 PM   
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There are a shitload of nasty critters down here, and I don't just mean my co-workers.

I've killed three water moccasins, and would have killed a copperhead if I had something handy to do so, here on my property, since moving last year. Grass snakes can live, all the others, pfffft.

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RE: Snakes? - 6/9/2010 6:59:51 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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You've not met danger face to face until you've seen the killer snail!

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RE: Snakes? - 6/9/2010 9:52:35 PM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

It isn't an issue, Jeff. You just need to understand the biology. All varieties of snake share a common allergy to #8 birdshot. Indentification is also much easier when they are not moving/hissing/rattling.

I saw about a 4 foot Mojave Green rattler that had been run over on the freeway this morning. It probably came up and struck at the car that killed it, too.


I doubt that very much.  C. atrox is arguably the absolute pissiest of the North American crotalids, but conspecifics like scutulatus are actually pretty mellow.  If you can accurately tell the two apart, which most people cannot, your scutulatus was probably not a tire biter so much as a rudely interrupted basker.  No bets if it was an atrox though.

Birdshot is a horrible way to kill an animal that is as fully sensate and well enervated as any mammal, but that does not die quickly or easily from even the most severe physical trauma due to their extremely high tolerance of anoxia and blood PH variability.


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RE: Snakes? - 6/9/2010 9:54:30 PM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

There are a shitload of nasty critters down here, and I don't just mean my co-workers.

I've killed three water moccasins, and would have killed a copperhead if I had something handy to do so, here on my property, since moving last year. Grass snakes can live, all the others, pfffft.


The vast majority of people who kill "water moccasins" are destroying Nerodia species, and apparently not many people can differentiate Elaphe guttata from a copperhead either.


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RE: Snakes? - 6/9/2010 9:55:49 PM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

The UK is no boring no deadly creatures anywhere.

Imagine however a world with killer garden snails?


Nope, you guys have Vipera berus.  They are cute wee adders.  If you're looking for really toxic snails though, you'll need to go bothering marine organisms.


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RE: Snakes? - 6/9/2010 10:01:57 PM   
GreedyTop


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I dont mind snakes, as long as they arent venomous.  oh, and king snakes.  Dont like king snakes (traumatic experience in my 20s...)

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RE: Snakes? - 6/9/2010 10:09:01 PM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

People misidentify the coral snake as the harmless scarlet king snake all the time and almost never get bit. AIUI the corals actually make pretty decent pets until they are inevitably correctly idnetified and then released/killed.


American corals are ridiculously docile and make fantastic captives except for one thing.  They're exclusively snake eaters, and it's extremely tough to wean them onto mice.  Most keepers end up going to assist feeding if they want to keep them long term, and that is how they are professionally maintained when they are kept for venom.

Kill a coral snake?  Good gods, why?  They are little and docile and can't do a damn thing about being picked up with a gardening glove, given that even the largest specimens have sub-2mm fangs and most have sub-1mm fangs.  You can't even milk them on standard polyvinyl as they cannot bite through it; you have to micropipette the fangs directly.  Nor do they attempt to bite except in the most extreme possible circumstances, eg, some idiot picks one up so roughly with their bare hand that the animal is fatally or near fatally injured and in extreme pain.  Even under those circumstances, most corals will continue attempting escape only until they die, never launching a retaliatory strike. 

If you're in South America ignore all I'm saying as the Micrurus over there are much larger and have tempers.  But fulvius and fulvius tener are about as inoffensive as wild animals ever get.  Seriously, I can't even imagine what you would have to do in order to manage being bitten by one.


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RE: Snakes? - 6/9/2010 10:11:34 PM   
GreedyTop


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you're scaring me... LOL

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RE: Snakes? - 6/9/2010 10:21:20 PM   
TheHeretic


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So you think killing them with a shovel is the better way to go?

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RE: Snakes? - 6/9/2010 10:36:07 PM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

So you think killing them with a shovel is the better way to go?


I think that leaving them alone, calling in an expert or moving them safely and nondestructively is the better way to go, but pithing (brain destruction, not just decapitation) is as close to humane euthanasia as you are likely to get if you are unwilling to be any more responsible than that when it comes to dealing with your native wildlife.  There are ways to deal with them that actually address the underlying issue of why there are snakes on your property rather than killing just the one that you can see.  Killing one (or several) doesn't really accomplish much except to cause pain and suffering to a wild animal that is unlikely to be aggressive when it isn't being scared, threatened or hurt.

I use an isoflurane drop box or IV/IC propofol prior to pithing if euthanasia is required, but as you most likely do not have a laboratory setup in your backyard, about the best you can do for a mortally injured snake that needs a fast and humane euth would be brain destruction via shovel.  Not the best option for a perfectly healthy one that you just don't want in your yard, especially not if you can use that snake to interest a herpetologist who may have very useful suggestions on how to solve your underlying snake problem.  If you kill it, most of the folks who could potentially solve your problem won't talk to you any more, at least not unless you're willing to hire them professionally and cough up a good chunk of change. 


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RE: Snakes? - 6/9/2010 11:13:05 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

I think that leaving them alone, calling in an expert or moving them safely and nondestructively is the better way to go

Agreed. I have relocated many rattlesnakes, even big ones, and never had an issue doing so. At my former job, relocating any wild animal trapped on the grounds was my responsibility. I have killed only one rattler. It was exceptionally large and aggressive (it attacked my friend's horse while she was riding). I didn't want to do it, but I really didn't have much choice at the time.

On a lighter note:
Snakes do not scare me (obviously). I've owned two burmese pythons, and used to handle many other pythons, boas, and other species. When I was 19, a friend of mine, 'R' had a 14' burmese named Cthulhu, who was fed only black rabbits. I came over one day, not realizing that:
a) Cthulhu was out of the snake room
and
b) that he hadn't eaten in 3 weeks.
unfortunately
c) I was wearing black sneakers
Result: me standing there with a 14' python latched onto my foot and wrapped around me nearly to the waist, squeezing. I called my friend to come get his snake, while letting Cthulhu know that he had bitten more than he could swallow. 'R' took one look, laughed like hell and ran for the camera! The pics were hilarious!!!


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RE: Snakes? - 6/10/2010 12:03:02 AM   
Dubbelganger


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I am scared of snakes and sharks. Having said that, if I see a snake, I will go the other way. Live and let live. They have their ecological niche for a reason.

I don't often encounter sharks. Last time was in the FL Keys, a Nurse shark, I think, about 12 feet long, and I just watched him swim on by under me as I snorkled. Scared the shit out of me. I did my best not to give off "scared" vibes, but I think I failed. I got back on the boat as soon as I could.

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RE: Snakes? - 6/10/2010 12:45:40 AM   
jbcurious


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I love all the "dangerous critters"... one of the most amazing sights I've ever seen was while diving in the sea of Cortez... All of a sudden the light faded and when I looked up, expecting to see the hull of a boat... a school of Hammerheads were circling above, the flashes of sunlight playing between the swimming sharks, the raw and primal power of each tail flick had me mesmerized for several minutes and then they were gone.

I also love snakes and think people get way to caught up in the negative hype about dangerous animals... Man is by far the most dangerous of all.

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RE: Snakes? - 6/10/2010 3:23:43 AM   
TheRaptorJesus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

See, I'm pretty sure that if my  mum was called 'baby' by an anteater she would collapse laughing,  no matter how charming said anteater thought he was...


What would her reaction be to an attempted Raptor-Seduction?

We do a sultry hip-swiveling mating dance.




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RE: Snakes? - 6/10/2010 3:35:06 AM   
Aneirin


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With this weather, (climate?) getting better, we are seeing more and more slow worms around where I live, not really a snake, but a harmless limbless lizard. I videoed one the other evening whilst on the way to the pub as it slithered up the gutter at the side of the road, and not a bad size either, just over a foot long. I have seen only one real snake down here, not entirely sure of the type except it had a v on it's head, it just looked at me and then buggered off fast into the undergrowth.

The other thing of course is we are getting a lot of non native creatures in our enviroment, be they escapees, let looses or just coming via the natural way, who knows, but with scorpions albeit small and harmless ones now living successfully in some parts of the country, this country's wildlife is definately getting more interesting.

As this area tends to be kind of damp, because of the sea being all around us and it rains a lot, we have a problem with snails, for they are everywhere and we actively try to avoid crunching the things when walking and sometimes in walking to avoid them the gait could be assumed to be a drunken gait. I used to have the buggers slugging it across my window, until I fixed a copper strip around the edges of the windows, but snails also are fascinating creatures. Anyone experienced them eating, if you but your finger in front of them, they will go for the salt on your skin, a tickly abrading feel as they eat.

There is some odd snails around here, not seen them for a while, but they have rainbow coloured shells and some even glow in the dark.


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RE: Snakes? - 6/10/2010 3:42:28 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

There are a shitload of nasty critters down here, and I don't just mean my co-workers.

I've killed three water moccasins, and would have killed a copperhead if I had something handy to do so, here on my property, since moving last year. Grass snakes can live, all the others, pfffft.


The vast majority of people who kill "water moccasins" are destroying Nerodia species, and apparently not many people can differentiate Elaphe guttata from a copperhead either.



Yeah, there are a lot of snakes that hang out in/near water, most are harmless, but these were moccasins; thick, dark, smelly, with the "cotton" mouths. I may have been wrong on the copperhead, but I would not have taken a chance.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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RE: Snakes? - 6/10/2010 8:52:14 AM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Yeah, there are a lot of snakes that hang out in/near water, most are harmless, but these were moccasins; thick, dark, smelly, with the "cotton" mouths. I may have been wrong on the copperhead, but I would not have taken a chance.


Nerodia are dead-bang on lookalikes and do exude musk as well.  As to "taking a chance", let's go ahead and examine what your chances really are.  Up to 85% of snake bites in North America are the result of the human deliberately attacking or approaching the snake; very few are accidental.  Of the accidental bites, the vast majority of those involved preventable behavior such as stepping or reaching where you cannot see with bare hands or bare/sandaled feet.  The heavy bodied Agkistrodon genus in particular and really most North American crotalids in general do not inflict bites to humans higher than the ankle or low calf, though a few Crotalus can reach mid-calf.  Boots solve this problem and would eliminate the majority of the genuinely accidental bite percentage. 

Not being a giant dick and attempting to kill snakes on purpose would basically eliminate around 85% of bites to humans in North America.  Removing one or two immediately visible snakes from a clearly extant population is unlikely to remove the population itself, and mostly what you've done by attempting this is to risk putting yourself in that 85% category of folks who show up to the hospital being very sorry that they didn't just leave the snake alone.  If you never approach or attack snakes in the first place, your chances of being bitten are extremely low. If you wear calf high boots and do not stick your unprotected hands into crevices, your chances start to approach zero even if you are in a snake-dense area.  The snake you see is not the one that's likely to bite you, not if you aren't aggressive and stupid towards it.

I've voluntarily entered the water with Agkistrodon piscivorus.  I don't necessarily recommend everyone go chasing them in a murky swamp, but if you happen to do that, they just aren't all that much of a muchness to be around as long as you are not aggressively attacking them.  Of the three subspecies conanti is a gentle pussycat, piscivorus piscivorus isn't bad, and leucostoma can be a bit of a bugger but still not anywhere near as bad as people make them out to be.  The one thing they do that most other snakes don't to this degree is form rapid and long lasting behavioral associations, so if force or violence is used to catch one, that's not a snake anyone is going to enjoy working with for the next year or so.   Treat them softly from their first sight of humans, get them over the initial nervousness, and they'll generally be acting like a kid's pet corn snake inside of a few hours.  Annoyingly enough when you breed and raise them in captivity, you don't get the same docility, and I have no idea why.   It's one of the few species where a wild caught adult genuinely makes for an easier handling situation than a CB/CR.  They are fascinating animals and have the highest neural density of any species yet studied, and their behavior is a lot more complex than most people realize. 

Thing is, if you approach any wild animal with scared/threatening body language, you'll probably get a defensive response.  I mean, duuuh.  It just gets worse if you start attacking them without provocation.  And that's all that most people ever do with them.  People who are scared of snakes will report them as "aggressive" or "mean" because they are triggering these behaviors.  People who actually know jack shit about snakes and who are not being giant dicks around them rarely trigger or escalate a defensive response in the animals, and have a much different experience.  They are neither aggressive nor mean, but they can certainly be defensive if you choose to be the attacker.

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RE: Snakes? - 6/10/2010 11:22:08 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

The vast majority of people who kill "water moccasins" are destroying Nerodia species, and apparently not many people can differentiate Elaphe guttata from a copperhead either.


It's a shame, because the copperhead is far more beautiful than the corn snake. Not that the corn snake isn't a beauty, but in my opinion, the copperhead is not only the most beautiful North American pit viper, it's probably the most beautiful North American snake, period. I've only seen two in the wild, but I was fortunate enough to be able to watch both of them for an hour or more each time.

The only other common pit vipers who come close (for my tastes) are the timber rattler and the prairie rattler. The green rattler is pretty, too, but rarely seen. I used to find a lot of prairie rattlers when I lived in Montana, and here in Minnesota I know some good pockets of timber rattlers in the bluff country not far from my house that I go scout out from time to time. It's a beautiful snake, especially after a shed, but nothing comes close to a copperhead for my money.


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RE: Snakes? - 6/10/2010 11:34:29 AM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
It's a shame, because the copperhead is far more beautiful than the corn snake. Not that the corn snake isn't a beauty, but in my opinion, the copperhead is not only the most beautiful North American pit viper, it's probably the most beautiful North American snake, period. I've only seen two in the wild, but I was fortunate enough to be able to watch both of them for an hour or more each time.

The only other common pit vipers who come close (for my tastes) are the timber rattler and the prairie rattler. The green rattler is pretty, too, but rarely seen. I used to find a lot of prairie rattlers when I lived in Montana, and here in Minnesota I know some good pockets of timber rattlers in the bluff country not far from my house that I go scout out from time to time. It's a beautiful snake, especially after a shed, but nothing comes close to a copperhead for my money.


They're also quite easy to breed, and there are some really spectacular color morphs available especially when you intergrade the subspecies.  Agkistrodon will breed with anything in or out of its genus, and in-genus crosses are viable and generally fertile too.  :)

Minnesota timbers are nice but not spectacular.  Try South Georgia timbers; locality specimens can have an intense pink-purple background color, a brilliant red line down the back transecting sharp black chevrons, and yellow highlights throughout and especially on the face.  The prettiest ones are also the hottest, both in terms of temper and sheer venom potency with something like 33-37% crotoxins.  They're in high demand both by hobbyists and venom researchers, but they need a bit more space to breed than coppers and cottons.

When you say prairie, which C. viridis do you mean?  Taxonomists had at the whole viridis complex recently and disorganized everything, so those may be oreganus now depending on your locality.


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