The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (Full Version)

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Brain -> The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/9/2010 9:49:56 PM)

Fuck them. Fuck these fucking assholes and this bullshit. They shouldn't be taxed anymore than anyone else and they shouldn't be taxed any less - pricks.

“Without the carried interest rate, lobbyists will tell you with a straight face, the engine of capitalism would break down.”

What a bunch of bullshit.

The Secret Billionaire Tax Break

The Senate yesterday teed up its next big battle: Will Wall Street titans pay half the tax rate of everyone else? Randall Lane on the $20 billion loophole not even the fat cats will defend.

Is the act of pushing money around still considered more socially valuable than actually creating things? And its corollary: Do Wall Street millionaires and billionaires, the folks responsible for a large chunk of the mess we’re in, still deserve to pay less than half the tax rate of the rest of us?

For decades, this subsidy for Wall Street tycoons, known as “carried interest,” has allowed virtually all private equity honchos (guys who carve up entire companies), venture capitalists (guys who provide seed investment in companies), and real estate partners (Donald Trump), as well as many hedge fund managers, to get their annual bounty taxed at 15 percent versus the 35 percent incurred by most readers of this article.

Yet corporate executives who create value get taxed in full on their comp packages. Engineers who create value with a patent get taxed in full on their big bonus. Innovative teachers get taxed in full on their merit raise. Compensation is compensation, but only Wall Street’s alternative asset fund managers get the tax break, expected to approach $20 billion over the next decade.

I talked to half a dozen top private equity players and other money managers, Republicans and Democrats in equal number, and not one, even with the necessary cloak of anonymity, chose to defend why they are paying less than half the tax rate you do.

“Virtually everybody in the private equity community knows that they have been receiving a gift for as long as people can remember,” says one of America’s best private equity fund managers, with billions in deals under his belt.

How indefensible? Before the House vote, the money lobby dispatched to the Capitol the walking embodiment of the tax break’s absurdity, Blackstone billionaire Steve Schwarzman, who in February 2007 defined the last decade by throwing himself a $3 million 60th birthday party, complete with serenades from Patti LaBelle and Rod Stewart, and replica paintings designed to transform the giant Park Avenue Armory into a mirror of his $37 million Manhattan apartment. That’s not really the guy who should be groveling for his personal tax break…


“They’ll say, ‘It’s my allocation. It’s the law. We’re entitled to it.’”

That’s the key word: entitlement. More than the entrepreneurs who do the hiring, the engineers and scientists who create the breakthroughs, the teachers and professors who train the entrepreneurs and scientists, the industry’s high-paid lobbyists—private equity has poured in almost $50 million over the past three years—have to argue alternative asset managers are the most important, noble people in the economy, as deemed by the U.S. tax code.

Without the carried interest rate, lobbyists will tell you with a straight face, the engine of capitalism would break down. “Now is not the time to upend more than 50 years of partnership tax law,” says Private Equity Council president Douglas Lowenstein. Companies wouldn’t be funded. Liquidity would dry up. Jobs would disappear. And their minions on Capitol Hill repeat the party line. “This is not a time to raise taxes on investments in business,” echoes Nebraska Rep. Lee Terry.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-09/carried-interest-secret-billionaire-tax-break-may-disappear/



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FirmhandKY -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/9/2010 10:06:44 PM)

Tell you what, Brian ...

You lobby against all the other "entitlements", and I'll help you to lobby against this "entitlement".

Firm




Brain -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/9/2010 10:53:38 PM)

You have a deal - is there a catch? And how many/what other ones do you mean?
Bill




Fellow -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/10/2010 12:17:36 AM)

quote:

35 percent incurred by most readers of this article.


Do you assume most readers make 200,000+ in a year?




LadyEllen -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/10/2010 12:58:16 AM)

Unfortunately I would suspect that this is a function of the wealth these people have and by which they might otherwise readily remove from the US in whole or in part any tax liability they might have. It is better to have them pay a lower rate in the US than seek the same rates as from the revolting peasants and so induce them to evade taxation, requiring expensive investigation and unsure prosecution, or to declare their incomes somewhere else altogether.

Is it right? No.

E




Termyn8or -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/10/2010 1:40:01 AM)

"You have a deal - is there a catch? And how many/what other ones do you mean?"

Me too. Congressional and other retirement plans. Corporate welfare, bailouts and such. Enrollment in the FDIC or FSLIC, scooter chairs for people who never worked a day in their fives, tax incentives that only work as long as they are effectively generating more profit quarterly, government loans to big business (Chrysler). Need more ?

Checks for welfare mothers, tax subsidies for fast food restaurants, federal help for gas stations to upgrade their underground tanks, loans to incompetent people under the guise of race, to bring balance supposedly. The flow of money between the PTB, the foreign aid of which part is used to lobby for more foreign aid.

Whichever fight you want to pick, just don't pick them all, we have not the strength to fight them, and they know it and are going to take evey last dime.

Besides, if I were a billionaire I would be nowhere near the US. I'd either be at home or on the run about ten thousand miles away. Worked for Bin Laden.

Be as stupid as you want, but really, why did Standard Oil become British Petroleum ? It was in their best interest. Believe me, if I climb back out of this rock, this time I will make the news, probably the Wall Street Journal. But fuck all this. I am on the other side now, and as such really don't care about a million here and there. Fuck all that. The system itself needs to be taken down, otherwise you will never beat it. Therefore you must find their weakness. I have, but it is not worth typing out here. I have the key, but it doesn't match the keyway.

Try again.

T




servantforuse -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/10/2010 4:45:35 AM)

Termy, If you were a billionare would should go on one of those big ships that Brain was complaining about in his last 'hate the rich' rant.




thompsonx -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/10/2010 8:46:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Tell you what, Brian ...

You lobby against all the other "entitlements", and I'll help you to lobby against this "entitlement".

Firm



How hard would you lobby against your own entitlements?




Silence8 -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/10/2010 9:55:25 AM)

No, Brain, you're totally right in your aim:

Go after the big guys, that's the biggest waste of money and the biggest risk to real freedoms.

Welfare mothers, blah blah blah -- this is just misdirection, again.

Go after big money. It's that simple.

And war. They're connected.


Godspeed, Brain! Godspeed!




Brain -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/10/2010 8:40:18 PM)

I did not assume anything about how much they make - I don't know.




VAcontroldom -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/10/2010 8:53:47 PM)

Let me piss off everyone by saying two different things.

I think the government raising taxes on the wealthy in general is quite foolish given where we are in the economic cycle. The states in the most economic trouble have the highest state tax rates and most liberal entitlements (CA, NJ, IL, LA, NY, IL) while the states with the lowest tax rates are doing best (except FL due to real estate)

But to my conservative friends, the carry trade won't go away, it will just be less profitable. As long as there is net revenue there, traders will put capital against it. It doesn't create capital investment, it's the outcome of a long trade.




eyesopened -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/11/2010 4:41:02 AM)

Brain I'm not sure why no one has been willing to help you out with US tax figures.  You may be using Canadian tax codes to judge how people pay tax in the US.

Here's the tax percentages released for 2010.  I'm not going to list every filing status I'll just do the "Filing Single" as an example and provide a link for you to see the other filing status if you care to learn.
http://taxes.about.com/b/2009/10/27/2010-tax-brackets-announced.htm

$0           -       8,375  = 10%
$8,375    -    34,000  =  15%
$34,000  -    82,400  =  25%
$82,400  -  171,850  =  28%
$171,850-  373,360  =  33%
$373,360+                =  35%

For the record... I'm in the 15% tax bracket.  Am I evil?  Even if Master and I were married and pooled our incomes we would be in the 25% bracket.  We don't have investment earnings.  Of course we are loaded and we do live a good life.  Should we be paying more?

The average taxpayer in the US based on average income would be in the 25% bracket.  The 15% you are bitching about is the kind of earnings...earnings on invenstments.  Now maybe it would be good to have a flat tax where everyone pays the same percentage on all earnings regardless of their source.

 
BTW... you never responded with your definition of "loaded" or of "the good life".  That would help clarify your posts.
 
edited for formatting
 
 




MrRodgers -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/11/2010 5:12:51 AM)

First of all, these capital gains and carried interest tax rates are the single most immoral aspect of our tax code. What a deal, I am allowed to call my income long term [sic] capital gains or my partnership income carried interest. But you kinkroids out there who actually have a real job, actually working for a living must call your income...salary subject in the individual max. 35% tax rate.

There is absolutely no justification whatsoever for the difference
. I don't care what anybody tries to tell you, in a free market, the tax code is to have no role in creating incentives.

This plutocracy at work since WWII, has been an outlandishly enriching aspect for those that can simply buy and sell after 1 year. Anybody is eligible NOT just Billionaires and it has impoverished the middle-class (higher taxes or more debt) and enriched the rich even further.

But that's ok, I am sure there are plenty on this board who are perfectly willing to get up very early in the morning, go bust their ass at work all day and produce enough to earn income that will be taxed at up to 35%.

I'll sleep in, hit the golf course, spend time with family and friends and after a year...sell and pay 15%. Thank you kinkroids, thank you, thank you.

As nothing more than a buyer and seller, and with all of my hard work [sic] and all of that risk [sic] I took...I am entitled not just to profits but also only a 15% tax.

YES, it is yet just another capitalist entitlement this a very large form of capitalist welfare. Everything they tell you...all of them, to justify this, is nothing less than...capitalist propaganda.




DomYngBlk -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/11/2010 5:17:02 AM)

I believe brain was referring to how Fund Managers "pay" are treated by our tax codes. That is where the 15% rate comes into play. I dont think he was disparaging anyone that is actually earning in that range. From your response, however, I guess you arent worried if someone that makes 100million pays the same amount of taxes that you do.




MrRodgers -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/11/2010 5:17:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VAcontroldom

Let me piss off everyone by saying two different things.

I think the government raising taxes on the wealthy in general is quite foolish given where we are in the economic cycle. The states in the most economic trouble have the highest state tax rates and most liberal entitlements (CA, NJ, IL, LA, NY, IL) while the states with the lowest tax rates are doing best (except FL due to real estate)

But to my conservative friends, the carry trade won't go away, it will just be less profitable. As long as there is net revenue there, traders will put capital against it. It doesn't create capital investment, it's the outcome of a long trade.

Unmitigated bullshit. We are $Trillions in debt.  Yes, it is all greed it just depends how greedy you are. Flroida has no and has never had an income tax. Most of the other states have an immigrant expense.

One way to increase jobs is to level the tax field and the great capitalist proletariat will be more able to do what really has to be done...actually fulfill his demand that really creates jobs.






MrRodgers -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/11/2010 5:19:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Tell you what, Brian ...

You lobby against all the other "entitlements", and I'll help you to lobby against this "entitlement".

Firm


No you don't. I am perfectly happy paying 15% while you pay 35%. I need those millions for my new yacht...er to create jobs. [sic] Actually I'll need one new deck hand. There's one job.




MrRodgers -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/11/2010 5:31:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

I believe brain was referring to how Fund Managers "pay" are treated by our tax codes. That is where the 15% rate comes into play. I dont think he was disparaging anyone that is actually earning in that range. From your response, however, I guess you arent worried if someone that makes 100million pays the same amount of taxes that you do.

Not quite right dude. The 15% tax rate applies to 'long term' 'capital gains' for anybody of age on anything bought and held for a year and then sold or income from a partnership 'carried interest' after a year. Somebody who makes $100 million in capital gains or carried interest will pay the same actual tax amount as somebody making $285,714,285 in salary.

It's cool to be able to 'name' your own income...isn't it ?




eyesopened -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/11/2010 5:41:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
I believe brain was referring to how Fund Managers "pay" are treated by our tax codes. That is where the 15% rate comes into play. I dont think he was disparaging anyone that is actually earning in that range. From your response, however, I guess you arent worried if someone that makes 100million pays the same amount of taxes that you do.


He has disparaged me personally in other threads.

However, I also said in my thread that I would like to see earnings taxed regardless of their source at the same rate.   I'm not sure how you read that as not caring.  I care more about corporations like Exxon who pay nothing in taxes to the US while earning over $45-billion in profit and paid roughly $15billion in taxes to other countries.  It bothers me more when individuals and corporations shelter their incomes so that they pay nothing at all.  That bothers me more than the 15%.  It would appear to me from what I have read on these boards that paying nothing isn't as important as paying just 15%.  I'd love to see Exxon and GE pay 15%... it would be 15% more than they pay now.




MrRodgers -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/11/2010 5:42:04 AM)

quote:

eyesopened

The average taxpayer in the US based on average income would be in the 25% bracket.  The 15% you are bitching about is the kind of earnings...earnings on invenstments.  Now maybe it would be good to have a flat tax where everyone pays the same percentage on all earnings regardless of their source.


You got it babe.  A flat tax would be the best but with the debt we have all income should be taxed as just that...income with NO deductions but with maybe 3 rates...well 4.

0 = zero to about $40,000 a year, 10% to about $100,000, 15% to about $200,000 and 25% for all income above that...no matter what 'kind' of income no  matter the avenue.




servantforuse -> RE: The Secret Billionaire Tax Break (6/11/2010 5:46:51 AM)

The best part of a flat tax. Your tax returns could be filed on a 3 x 5 index card.




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