RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist?

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/21/2010 10:06:43 PM)
Why is it i can get no atheist to respond ti the question.... do you have no faith in anything? I asked GS straight out... i asked as a general question... still no reply,

brainiacsub -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/21/2010 10:57:01 PM)
Okay....I guess the answer is "not really." I prefer to think I have reasoned belief. I have reasoned belief that my car will start when I need it to, that my dogs will return when they run out the front door, that the plane will not crash when I fly, that I will wake in good health tomorrow. I have on occasion put faith in other people, but that rarely works out. If we aren't talking about deities, why does it matter?

sub4rob -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/21/2010 11:04:22 PM)
I am an atheist through and through as is my husband and children. But yes I do have faith, I have faith in myself, my husband, our marraige, my childen, my van, my carreer, my future. Just because I believe in no magical deity does not mean I have no faith or wisdom. I just put my faith in different things.

GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 12:02:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Why is it i can get no atheist to respond ti the question.... do you have no faith in anything? I asked GS straight out... i asked as a general question... still no reply, I've been waiting for an answer to my question.

Elisabella -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 12:13:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Why is it i can get no atheist to respond ti the question.... do you have no faith in anything? I asked GS straight out... i asked as a general question... still no reply, I've been waiting for an answer to my question. Just for the record it's a lot harder to strawman someone when they come out and directly say what it is they do and do not believe.

GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 12:37:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Just for the record it's a lot harder to strawman someone when they come out and directly say what it is they do and do not believe. I did twice when Firm asked earlier in the thread. Sadly all it seemed to do was lead to a twenty something page sidetrack.

Brain -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 12:43:25 AM)
I have faith in myself. I don't believe in God I believe in me. That means I am God - wow, I just did a Glenn Beck. [8\|] quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Why is it i can get no atheist to respond ti the question.... do you have no faith in anything? I asked GS straight out... i asked as a general question... still no reply, I've been waiting for an answer to my question. Just for the record it's a lot harder to strawman someone when they come out and directly say what it is they do and do not believe.

RCdc -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 1:00:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc Tazzy, what I am saying is that what you present is a strawman arguement. That is no different to the way someone suggested that all people who follow religion have lower IQs... again... strawman. Again - it only shows that both sides of the camp are subjected to strawman arguements over and over and over... Without getting into the point you're trying to make, (just to be fair) did an atheist actually write "all" or did they refer to a study showing a correlation between IQ and religion? There was no link or reference to specific case studies that identified that they had obtained data. To be fair, the word 'all' was not used but it was written in a generalistic way so as to classify an entire group of individuals. (Sorry for being so behind responding - timezones,sleep an all that - gosh this threads moved on a bit!). the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 1:13:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Why is it i can get no atheist to respond ti the question.... do you have no faith in anything? I asked GS straight out... i asked as a general question... still no reply, To be fair tazzy, GS did ask you a question first which you didn't reply to. To honest, I personally find the question you have asked to be disingenuous (did I get that spelling correct willbe?). Even I can see where that ones going... the.dark.

Plasticine -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 1:15:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Why is it i can get no atheist to respond ti the question.... do you have no faith in anything? I asked GS straight out... i asked as a general question... still no reply, I'll jump in the deep end and bite... Hi everyone. I haven't read all 29 pages, just the first and the last few and have had these discussions many times. There is a fundamental problem with the question when asked by a "person of faith" to an atheist. (small "a"). The term faith is completely loaded. I don't have faith in anything. I have rational operating beliefs that are based on observable and repeatable phenomena. Should those phenomena begin to report different data I will begin to believe differently. I do my best NOT to have irrational operating beliefs that are based on questionable information, because questionable information leads to questionable beliefs. And OP, No its not OK to strawman an atheist, but this is why it happens. People have a need to reframe things to their own worldview in order to discuss them; If one has a worldview in which faith is a necessity they will not reframe the faithless accurately.

RCdc -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 1:16:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Why is it i can get no atheist to respond ti the question.... do you have no faith in anything? I asked GS straight out... i asked as a general question... still no reply, I've been waiting for an answer to my question. Just for the record it's a lot harder to strawman someone when they come out and directly say what it is they do and do not believe. You think so? Hmmm... I am going to have to contemplate that one. Do you mean their core beliefs, rather than their pigeonhole? the.dark.

wittynamehere -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 1:18:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine I don't have faith in anything. I have rational operating beliefs that are based on observable and repeatable phenomena. Should those phenomena begin to report different data I will begin to believe differently. I do my best NOT to have irrational operating beliefs that are based on questionable information, because questionable information leads to questionable beliefs. This :)

Elisabella -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 3:03:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc You think so? Hmmm... I am going to have to contemplate that one. Do you mean their core beliefs, rather than their pigeonhole? the.dark. Basically I meant that if someone implies that you believe something, the easiest way to counter that is to link to a post where you posted a concise overview of your beliefs that are in direct contradiction with the strawman.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 5:33:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl And you just made my point perfectly. Thank you. So you were just agreeing with me, cool. The thing is you turn around and as the dark pointed out try and ram a square peg like me in a round hole in the quote below. Why was that? quote: I have faith there is a higher power. What that power is, i dont know. An atheist has faith there isnt. No GS, i was not agreeing with you. Nor was i trying to ram anything of yours anywhere. I have been drilled on this by dc. Im sure an intelligent man such as yourself can go back and figure out the why's and how's.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 5:35:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Why is it i can get no atheist to respond ti the question.... do you have no faith in anything? I asked GS straight out... i asked as a general question... still no reply, I'll jump in the deep end and bite... Hi everyone. I haven't read all 29 pages, just the first and the last few and have had these discussions many times. There is a fundamental problem with the question when asked by a "person of faith" to an atheist. (small "a"). The term faith is completely loaded. I don't have faith in anything. I have rational operating beliefs that are based on observable and repeatable phenomena. Should those phenomena begin to report different data I will begin to believe differently. I do my best NOT to have irrational operating beliefs that are based on questionable information, because questionable information leads to questionable beliefs. And OP, No its not OK to strawman an atheist, but this is why it happens. People have a need to reframe things to their own worldview in order to discuss them; If one has a worldview in which faith is a necessity they will not reframe the faithless accurately. First, how is it loaded when i have already agreed people who state they are atheists have no religious faith? Thats pretty much a pass for you and a road block againsr me for later claiming you do. Second, i would love to se3e a definitioo for rational operating beliefs

tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 5:37:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brain I have faith in myself. I don't believe in God I believe in me. That means I am God - wow, I just did a Glenn Beck. [8\|] There is nothing wrong in having faith in yourself. Its an excellent frame of mind.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 5:39:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sub4rob I am an atheist through and through as is my husband and children. But yes I do have faith, I have faith in myself, my husband, our marraige, my childen, my van, my carreer, my future. Just because I believe in no magical deity does not mean I have no faith or wisdom. I just put my faith in different things. THANK YOU! No gotcha moment... no trap... no waiting to pounce and declare that you have religious leanings. Just a pure, honest answer to a question, BTW, i believe we all have faith in ourselves. I also believe many who state they are atheistic are afraid to use that word... faith. such is a pity.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 5:45:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub Okay....I guess the answer is "not really." I prefer to think I have reasoned belief. I have reasoned belief that my car will start when I need it to, that my dogs will return when they run out the front door, that the plane will not crash when I fly, that I will wake in good health tomorrow. I have on occasion put faith in other people, but that rarely works out. If we aren't talking about deities, why does it matter? How does your use of the words reasoned belief differ from the following definition? Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, concept or thing.[1][2] The English word is thought to date from 1200–50, from the Latin fidem or fidēs, meaning "trust", derived from the verb fīdere, "to trust".[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith Are you afraid to use the word faith in describing your beliefs?

marie2 -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 6:51:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: sub4rob I am an atheist through and through as is my husband and children. But yes I do have faith, I have faith in myself, my husband, our marraige, my childen, my van, my carreer, my future. Just because I believe in no magical deity does not mean I have no faith or wisdom. I just put my faith in different things. THANK YOU! No gotcha moment... no trap... no waiting to pounce and declare that you have religious leanings. Just a pure, honest answer to a question, BTW, i believe we all have faith in ourselves. I also believe many who state they are atheistic are afraid to use that word... faith. such is a pity. That's because this poster had no investment in the argument. She is neutral, with no desire to make a point, or do anything other than leave her thoughts on the thread. If it's coming down to an atheist vs theist argument, I've learned that an atheist isn't likely to admit to having faith, because of it's religious connotation and/or because of the possibility that a theist would use it to strawman them and then say aha...so you ARE the same as us. Compare these two statements: I'm a person of faith. and I have faith in certain things. Each statement carries a different implication. Although some of us were coming from a slightly different place, trying to make a slightly different point, the atheists felt that those words were going to be used to pidgeon-hole them, which is why no one wanted to touch it. It would have made this whole mess too sticky. It would have been nice to for an atheist to say "yes, I do have beliefs and faith in certain things, but it's not the same as having faith in a religious belief, and here's why I think that....." But that wasn't going to happen here because the topic was begun under the belief that someone on the other thread had already tried to use this line of argument in order to strawman Gotsteel.

xssve -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 7:22:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DCWoody This really bugs me. Clearly you can't tell someone else what they think, but you can tell a religious person what they should believe. Christianity, as the example...has been around for a couple of thousand years. The bible's been firmly set as the holy book for a long, time...yet people pick and choose. The entire point of (most) religions is telling you what to do, if you think the majority of christian gospel is wrong....newsflash: you're not a christian. There is no option within christianity to personally decide to not believe in major sections of it, either form your own variant a la protestantism, or obey 'your' religion. A christian who doesn't believe in christ, a hindu who doesn't believe in reincarnation.....these are contradictions in terms. If you don't believe in reincarnation, you are not hindu, you can call yourself hindu, but that just makes you an idiot.... Um, no, not really - you might be right about the Hidu's, but a belief in the inerrant of the Bible is a specific tenet of dogma shared by many, but not all Christian sects - the Catholics, to whom I think you are referring, argued for a couple of centuries over whether or not Jesus was a god - the Arians said he was a man, but since man is inherent;y corrupt, and if Jesus was a man he would have been heir to corruption - so essentially, there was a big fight that lasted a long time over whether Jesus's shit stank or not, and in the end, the current view prevailed, that his shit didn't stink, in fact he shat not at all, being a god and everything, and that is the view that has been shaping Christianity ever since - but the Arians were Christians too, they just weren't Catholics anymore. Ultimately, there is almost no way you say anybody who professes to be a Christian is not, in fact a Christian, since there are so many variations in doctrine, but naturally, Christians do it constantly, it's not a strawman - you just did it. Calvinism, for example, is very nearly the complete polar antithesis of anything and everything Jesus ever said in Bible. The very view that the Bible is inerrant and literally true is heretical, according to the words of Jesus himself (see The Woes of the Pharisee's), and it borders on idolatry.

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