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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:16:33 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Lots of ways.

We step outside and take in a wealth of information in an instant.
As a musician, there's a whole other way of processing and developing that isn't conscious thought.
And that the mind can comprehend everything is a sweeping assumption. Several traditions, in fact, stress learning to experience without the mind alone, especially those stressing meditation. And plenty of people have enough experience with meditation to question the supremacy of the mind.

Thought is one way. A useful way. An important way. But not the only way of knowing.

And, as it's based on experience, none of this is reliant on faith (except perhaps at first when learning).


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:18:28 AM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		More semantics. Faith as a synonym for trust is not the same thing as religious faith.

Still boring as hell.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:23:23 AM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		I don't believe in God. It is a silly concept to me. I have faith that I am correct.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:26:13 AM   
Musicmystery


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:26:36 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
However, I'll disengage my emotions, and ask you to state your position clearly and concisely, and we can discuss it.

It's my position that faith isn't a valid way of obtaining actual knowledge.



You need to tighten this up as it is worded poorly. Much of scientific knowledge has been obtained in the faith that something is there or will be created.



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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:31:03 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

More semantics. Faith as a synonym for trust is not the same thing as religious faith.

Still boring as hell.


You need to read up on epistemology.

Firm


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:31:44 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

More semantics. Faith as a synonym for trust is not the same thing as religious faith.

Still boring as hell.


Agreed. Religious faith, for many, is the very strong likelihood that I know I am pursuing something false but I have accepted that the penalty for not doing so as fact which has significantly clouded my judgement in such a way that it renders all other options obsolete.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:38:28 AM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

More semantics. Faith as a synonym for trust is not the same thing as religious faith.

Still boring as hell.


You need to read up on epistemology.

Firm



How ironic that you would bring this up. I was just going to reply to Tim that I have never seen a theist on the boards make an epistemologically sound argument regarding their "knowledge" of their God. It is rare that an atheist or agnostic here makes an epistemologically unsound one regarding their lack of faith. Funny how that works.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:40:11 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

More semantics. Faith as a synonym for trust is not the same thing as religious faith.

Still boring as hell.


You need to read up on epistemology.

Firm


You're not about to try and justify your crap with Hume or Kant are you? Maybe you'd be better off sticking to semantics.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:42:27 AM   
brainiacsub


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Status: offline 		He better read up on memetics first.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:46:28 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
You need to tighten this up as it is worded poorly. Much of scientific knowledge has been obtained in the faith that something is there or will be created.

How would you change the wording?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:50:19 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

More semantics. Faith as a synonym for trust is not the same thing as religious faith.

Still boring as hell.


Agreed. Religious faith, for many, is the very strong likelihood that I know I am pursuing something false but I have accepted that the penalty for not doing so as fact which has significantly clouded my judgement in such a way that it renders all other options obsolete.

Human beings construct, in their mind, a picture of reality.  This is what they "know" and is their "knowledge".

Some of that reality is based on empiricism.  Some is based on rationalism.  Some is "constructed" contingent on convention, human perception, and social experience.

Any of that reality except for empiricism involves a degree of faith.

Knowledge therefore entails belief.  Belief is a subjective personal basis for individual behavior, while truth is an objective state independent of the individual i.e. a fact.

If you do not have personal empirical knowledge that the sun consists of nuclear explosions, or that George Washington was the first President of the US, then you have a belief about those things, in which your faith in the method whereby you arrive at those conclusions is strong enough that you consider them "facts".

If you do not have a personal, empirical basis for a belief, then faith is involved.

Firm


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:52:06 AM   
Jeffff


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Edited for stupidity.

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 6/20/2010 9:55:49 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:52:36 AM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		As DomKen has already pointed out your committing an equivocation fallacy, my only question is whether you're doing this intentionally or not?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:53:23 AM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
However, I'll disengage my emotions, and ask you to state your position clearly and concisely, and we can discuss it.

It's my position that faith isn't a valid way of obtaining actual knowledge.




No, but faith is a valid (and essential) element of "belief". Doesn't matter what kind of belief, religious or otherwise. If you believe something that can't be proven via science, then you are being influenced by "faith" in something.

I believe that "what goes around comes around", but I can't prove it or claim it as fact. It's a belief based upon observation and life experience.

I think the disconnect is coming in because you think in order to have a belief (in whatever) there must be science to back it up or else your belief is "unreasonable".

Surely you must have a belief about something that has never been proven scientifically.

Do you believe that hard work pays off?

Do you believe that positive thought helps people achieve goals?

Do you believe that self-doubt is a negative influence on our lives?

Do you believe that your argument here is valid?


Can any of the above actually be proven?


There isn't a single person debating on these boards who doesn't believe they are right, and that belief requires faith in something as it's basis. Can they prove they are right? Not neccessarily. But based upon their faith in A B and C, they believe they are right.




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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:55:07 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

How ironic that you would bring this up. I was just going to reply to Tim that I have never seen a theist on the boards make an epistemologically sound argument regarding their "knowledge" of their God. It is rare that an atheist or agnostic here makes an epistemologically unsound one regarding their lack of faith. Funny how that works.

I could easily give an epistemological argument for the belief in Jesus, but the people who already believe don't need it, and atheists whose belief systems categorically deny it wouldn't listen in the first place.

Hell, you guys don't even seem to understand how much you rely on faith and belief in your own constructed reality.

Firm


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:57:54 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

As DomKen has already pointed out your committing an equivocation fallacy, my only question is whether you're doing this intentionally or not?

Please be so kind as to explain the equivocation fallacy that I am using?

Firm


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 10:05:14 AM   
marie2


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From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Hell, you guys don't even seem to understand how much you rely on faith and belief in your own constructed reality.



Agree.

Everything we do....from how we raise our kids, to how we live our lives, to the careers we pursue, to the things we judge, choose, avoid, pursue, and ad infinitum is driven by and founded upon our beliefs, most of which will never be proven.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 10:10:11 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

He better read up on memetics first.

While the theory of memes is interesting, and has some utility for conversation, it has been discredited as actual science.

Your savior Dawkins isn't perfect, yanno.

Firm


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 10:12:37 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Hell, you guys don't even seem to understand how much you rely on faith and belief in your own constructed reality.

Albeit unintentionally, this speaks to my point at the top of the page.

Thoughts can be traps as much as tools, entangling one's self in one's own mental invention.

Scientific method, when precisely applied, is in fact a tool to guard against such subjective creations.

So is meditation.

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