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Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take on ... - 6/23/2010 6:46:20 PM

Brain

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FTA:

Although both films expose the ability of large and powerful institutions to impose their will on society, they also reveal the news media's complicity in this process. Most people I know become journalists because they want to "do good" -- whether by informing the public, unmasking bad guys, or recounting the deeds of unsung heroes. But there's a limit to how much they can accomplish given the industry's current commitment to profit, power and entertainment. Newspaper executives don't want to take on the military or upset powerful religious constituencies; they want consumers to read the ads and buy the paper.

Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take on God and Power

The Tillman Story, a new documentary about the Army's attempt to cover up the circumstances of his death and his family's search for the truth, is a riveting testimonial to the power of personal integrity. Tillman was not a religious man: At his funeral, his younger brother Richard emphatically stated that Pat did not believe in God. But he did believe in honor, commitment and collegiality -- all traits that help explain why he enlisted and then remained in the Army even after he began questioning the war in Iraq.

But such lofty ideals have small chance of success when powerful, organized interests have the resources and influence to shape media narratives. And while the government and the military can appeal to patriotism and national security, religious organizations can conjure God -- and greenbacks, too, to ensure that their will is done. This is the chilling theme of 8: The Mormon Proposition, another new documentary that shows how the media was used to promote a political agenda.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diane-winston/pat-tillman-and-prop-8-tw_b_619466.html

Post #: 1

RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/23/2010 6:54:21 PM

pahunkboy

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Chapman said Tillman was murdered. He was going to blow the whistle that the war is a fraud to control the drugs.

I believe that is the case. (except for the pipeline that goes thru there.- there is a need to secure that pipeline)

(in reply to Brain)

Post #: 2

RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/23/2010 7:26:59 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Chapman said Tillman was murdered. He was going to blow the whistle that the war is a fraud to control the drugs.

I believe that is the case. (except for the pipeline that goes thru there.- there is a need to secure that pipeline)

Chapman seems to an expert in just about everything.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 3

RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/23/2010 8:07:09 PM

Brain

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If he was murdered then it makes me angry and I think of how the law is not for everybody which means we have to do something about the people in government who benefit from immunity from prosecution. But the other thing that really concerns me is the integrity of the media. I know it helps to be able to go on the Internet and get news from other sources but I don't know if that's enough to fix the problem.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 4

RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/24/2010 3:34:29 AM

eyesopened

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There you go with that "we" again.

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RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/24/2010 5:59:49 AM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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the premise is that Tillman served when he had everything in life. His blabbing would have been taken seriously and jeopardized the war.

While friendly fire happens- it is not as frequent as one might think- and was not the case with this guy.

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 6

RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/24/2010 9:29:27 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

There you go with that "we" again.

I think he carries a mouse around in his pocket.

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RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/24/2010 9:35:23 AM

mnottertail

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or a tapeworm.

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RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/24/2010 5:59:59 PM

tazzygirl

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According to this report its not religion keeping marriage from being equal.

http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/issues/egan_sherrill_prop8_1_6_09.pdf

I dont know anything about the group. Perhaps someone else does.

California’s Proposition 8:
What Happened, and What Does the Future Hold?
Patrick J. Egan
New York University
Kenneth Sherrill
Hunter College-CUNY
Commissioned by the Evelyn & Walter Haas, Jr. Fund
in San Francisco.
Released under the auspices of the
National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute

Their conclusion...

The figure suggests that two factors—aging and generational replacement—may hasten
the arrival of a day when a majority of Californians votes in favor of marriage equality.
As Californians born from the Baby Boom and afterward have aged, they have become
more supportive of legalizing marriage, and it is possible that this trend will persist
among the youngest Californians as they grow older. At the same time, the newest
voters enter the electorate with much more supportive views on same‐sex marriage and
other rights for gay people than those who they replace.

The same thing i have been saying all along.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/24/2010 6:17:23 PM

dcnovice

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I just looked through the report, and my impression is that religiosity was the third most important factor in support for Prop. 8. At least, that seemed to be what Figure 1 (p. 8) is saying.

The report also points to religiosity as a factor in African Americans' support for Prop. 8: "We show that black support for Proposition 8 can largely be explained by African Americans’ higher levels of religiosity—a characteristic strongly associated with opposition to same‐sex marriage" (p. 2).

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(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 10

RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/24/2010 6:21:36 PM

tazzygirl

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I think that was covered in the opening comment of the report.

On November 4, 2008, California voters approved Proposition 8—which eliminated the
right of same‐sex couples to marry—by a 52 to 48 percent margin. In this study, we
examine three questions about this result using a new survey of California voters as
well as precinct‐level election returns and demographic data. First, we explore the
characteristics of voters that were associated with support for and opposition to
Proposition 8. We find that voters’ party identification, ideology, religiosity and age had
a much bigger impact on the vote than other voter characteristics. Second, we examine
the African American vote for Proposition 8. We provide evidence showing that while
African Americans supported Proposition 8 more than voters as a whole, they did not
do so in the overwhelming numbers suggested by one exit poll. We show that black
support for Proposition 8 can largely be explained by African Americans’ higher levels
of religiosity—a characteristic strongly associated with opposition to same‐sex
marriage. Finally, we examine how Californians’ opinions have shifted dramatically
toward support of marriage equality over the short time between the Knight Initiative
in 2000 and now, and explore the implications of this change for the future.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 11

RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/24/2010 6:29:11 PM

dcnovice

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The sentence you highlighted directly precedes the one I quoted. The first sentence does say that a single exit poll overestimated African Americans' support for Prop. 8. Fair enough. But the authors then immediately cite religiosity as a factor among those African Americans who did support Prop 8. Moreover, they go on to describe religiosity as "a characteristic strongly associated with opposition to same-sex marriage." I don't know how much clearer they could have been.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 12

RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/24/2010 6:40:47 PM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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I took that to mean that the support being placed at the feet of the black community wasnt as great as was claimed, but what support their was was because of religion. Or am i reading that differently than you are.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 13

RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/24/2010 6:44:59 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

I read it the same way about African Americans, though I took what came after the dash as a general statement. That general statement, if such it be, seems to suggest that religion is a factor in marriage inequality.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 14

RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/24/2010 7:03:06 PM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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One other portion i want to point out...

AFRICAN AMERICANS AND PROPOSITION 8
Here we present data indicating that while African Americans did support the measure
at higher rates than voters as a whole, we have strong reason to think that their support
was not as high as that estimated by the National Election Pool (NEP) exit poll (70
percent). Analysis of the full range of data available persuades us that the NEP exit poll
overestimated African American support for Proposition 8 by ten percentage points or
more. Furthermore, much of African Americans’ support for Proposition 8 can be
explained by the fact that blacks tend to be more religious than Californians as a whole.

Sounds like this group was made a scape goat.

But earlier in the same report...

As shown in Table 2, most of the differences found among population groups in Table 1
persist in the multivariate context. Across all models, men, older voters, the more
religious, Republicans, and conservatives were all significantly more likely to support
Proposition 8 than women, younger voters, the less religious, Democrats and liberals.

Again supporting what i have always said... once the blue hairs die off, the chances of this becoming "acceptable" will become greater. The young dont get politically involved as a group.

To blame all this soley upon religion isnt looking at all the variables.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 15

RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/24/2010 7:05:30 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

To blame all this soley upon religion isnt looking at all the variables.

Agreed.

But to assume religion plays no role isn't looking at all the variables either.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 16

RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/24/2010 7:16:41 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

You're right. I went back to my original post and realized i should have said...

According to this report its not just religion keeping marriage from being equal.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 6/24/2010 7:18:02 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 17

RE: Pat Tillman and Prop 8: Two New Documentaries' Take... - 6/24/2010 7:22:15 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

And I do recognize that some religious folks have labored hard for marriage equality. Indeed, DC's marriage equality law was signed at my church!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 18

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