Afghanistan, job done ? (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 6:29:25 AM)

With mounting casualties in the Afghanistan conflict and people on allied sides now really questioning this war, can the forces ever leave without the objective being completed  ?

First we were told it was about Al Quaeda, hunting the terrorists, then it was about the Taliban and freeing the people from their grasp and now, mentions of vast wealth in minerals that have obviously piqued the interest of western corporate powers, all that wealth to exploit, ( whether they already knew about it or not, it sounds very similar to the conflict to control oil as in Iraq and maybe Iran later on).

But as the west takes stock of the casualties coming out of those lands and calling for an exit asap, can the allied forces actually leave, or have we created yet another no win situation ?

Say for example the allied forces leave without removing the Taliban or even finding Osama, what will that mean, the Taliban threw out the Russians, one super power and now they have done the same to another super power, the Americans, it kind of makes a rag tag guerilla army superior to the world's superpowers. So during the war against the Ruskies there was US help via CIA, but who superior now is aiding the Taliban, or is it the west fell into the trap as they believed the Afghans were just underrated as a fighting force due to their lack of technical weaponry.

If the allied forces pull out without the current objective completed, what will become of Afghanistan, for surely the Taliban will grow in numbers and strength as it will be seen as an Iconic country for all the west haters in the world, and there became a rallying point for those haters to train and operate from, if it wasn't before the war.

Is Afghanistan yet another no win situation, is it going to be yet another country that has ejected superior forces and their spiral into oppression and despotic regime ?

Is Afghanistan beginning to look like another past conflict and what should we learn from this ?



DarlingSavage -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 7:16:37 AM)

US has a history of supporting dictatorial governments as long as they don't hinder US interests.  Sad, but true.  Meanwhile, Americans are raised to believe that we're the good guys that fight oppression and spread freedom throughout the world when in reality, it's exactly the opposite and all in the name of profit and exploitation of natural resources and it breaks my heart.



pahunkboy -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 7:33:08 AM)

How is winning measured?



Termyn8or -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 7:39:07 AM)

The stock market Hunky.

T



pahunkboy -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 9:00:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

The stock market Hunky.

T


LOL.  Of course. 



Archer -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 9:36:29 AM)

Well lets take a short break from the standard profit is evil rallies and think about what we're looking at.

Mineral wealth in Afghanistan
Mineral wealth means mining jobs
Mining jobs generally mean decent pay
Decent pay means development of a middle class in Afghanistan.
This means a chance that Afghanistan will grow out of the 18th century and into the modern age with industry.
Mining jobs could mean an end to the poverty that drives farmers to grow poppy and ship heroine to the world.

Mineral wealth might be a good thing for Afghanistan and the world.

Now that said lets take my rose colored glasses off and make sure that the profits and benefits of that potential poverty ending mineing actually does create wealth for Afghanistan. Lets make sure that they don't get ripped off for their minerals.







mnottertail -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 9:40:23 AM)

They will get fucked, Chinas got the only money out there to buy.  And they buy cheap and are not at all concerned about world opinion in these matters, nor is it likely that there are even any trickle down theories  in Afghan ruling classes.  Chinas been buying up minerals and oil for a long time.  They understand resources. 



Moonhead -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 12:58:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

US has a history of supporting dictatorial governments as long as they don't hinder US interests.  Sad, but true.  Meanwhile, Americans are raised to believe that we're the good guys that fight oppression and spread freedom throughout the world when in reality, it's exactly the opposite and all in the name of profit and exploitation of natural resources and it breaks my heart.

In fact, you have a history of putting dictatorial governments in power, not just supporting them. Google "Mohammed Mossadeq".



DarlingSavage -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 2:06:57 PM)

quote:


In fact, you have a history of putting dictatorial governments in power, not just supporting them. Google "Mohammed Mossadeq".


Me, personally?  Isn't that what I just said?  I guess I said that we support them, but yes, we also put them up in power.  Still breaks my heart.



Moonhead -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 2:14:27 PM)

Not you personally, no. That was the CIA, because he was threatening to seize the oil business in Iran as public assets.



servantforuse -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 5:04:29 PM)

Maybe General Petreaus wouldn't have accepted the job without certain promises. He will get the job done there but we won't be leaving by next July. I also hope that the restrictions put on our military are now removed. You can't win a war with one hand tied behing your back.



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 5:07:33 PM)

Meet the new boss same as the old boss...as they say.



TheHeretic -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 5:57:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

In fact, you have a history of putting dictatorial governments in power, not just supporting them. Google "Mohammed Mossadeq".


We've put a stop to a couple as well. Google "Hitler"



Lucylastic -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 6:22:14 PM)

quote:

Now that said lets take my rose colored glasses off and make sure that the profits and benefits of that potential poverty ending mineing actually does create wealth for Afghanistan. Lets make sure that they don't get ripped off for their minerals.
ORIGINAL: Archer



THIS



vincentML -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 6:23:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Well lets take a short break from the standard profit is evil rallies and think about what we're looking at.

Mineral wealth in Afghanistan
Mineral wealth means mining jobs
Mining jobs generally mean decent pay
Decent pay means development of a middle class in Afghanistan.
This means a chance that Afghanistan will grow out of the 18th century and into the modern age with industry.
Mining jobs could mean an end to the poverty that drives farmers to grow poppy and ship heroine to the world.

Mineral wealth might be a good thing for Afghanistan and the world.

Now that said lets take my rose colored glasses off and make sure that the profits and benefits of that potential poverty ending mineing actually does create wealth for Afghanistan. Lets make sure that they don't get ripped off for their minerals.



Ooooooee yes!!! Just like the world is doing in the case of "blood diamonds" in Sierra Leone. How's that working out? [8|][8|]

Btw, Afghanistan 18th Century? More like 8th Century, doncha think?

article here



vincentML -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 6:38:26 PM)

quote:

If the allied forces pull out without the current objective completed, what will become of Afghanistan, for surely the Taliban will grow in numbers and strength as it will be seen as an Iconic country for all the west haters in the world, and there became a rallying point for those haters to train and operate from, if it wasn't before the war.


The premise is fallacious and ever changing as you point out. The "current objective" is an opaque anti-insurgency strategy.

The "Taliban" are not an homogeneous force but a tribal and ever changing catch-all.

Published reports (which I am too lazy to cite at the moment) inform us that Al Q have moved their base out of Afghanistan. There are Al Q units in Somalia and Yemen and in Wajiristan (sp?) Mission creep anyone?

Do you suppose Joe "bite me" Biden is right when he advocates tactics that mainly employ Special Ops supplemented with Drones instead of an Army suited for a large battlefield?

And oh yeah.... seriously, who gives a fuck about what becomes of Afghanistan?



DarwinsLilHelper -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 7:32:12 PM)

Ah, the mythology of the noble savage as applied by the Spoiled, American Liberal/Communist. DarlingSavage indeed. Of course if DarlingSavage actually lived the life of an Afghani woman instead of ignoring their plight because it didn't fit in with her nostalgia for 1960's peace marches. The Afghan men who'm she idolizes as freedom fighters would have raped her multiple times, while calling her a Western infidel whore and then marched her into a soccer stadium in front of their women and put a 7.62x39 into the back of her head.

DarlingSavage's very immodest presence on this web site would be enough for a Taliban Imam to decide in favor of her death warrant once he saw a couple of the animated gif advertisements or a few members pictures.

Does anybody really, honest to god think that Army Generals with multiple stars on their collar give interviews to Rolling Stone without without knowing and having carefully mapped out the results? McCrystal wanted to be fired before losing A-stan became his notation in the history books. Because a year and a half from now Hillary Clinton will be standing at a podium at some pancake breakfast in Iowa somewhere saying "And now ladies and gentlemen. An American hero who needs no introduction and my running mate should I receive your nomination for President of these United States..."

McCrystal will be the next democratic sock puppet general on the talk show consultant circuit...Basically the next Wesley Clark.

Now the Democrats are going to cynically throw Gen Petraus into the bramble patch...Thinking that he'll be politically destroyed by being the steward of a war made unwinnable by the Administrations ridiculous rules of engagement and deliberate obstruction of the war effort. Mainly because Petraus pulling an Eisenhower, laying down his stars and running for the Republican nomination is the worst nightmare of the Obama re-election staff. "Lets send Gordon to Khartoum! Lest he get to powerful."

Of course there are political perils for the Administration to. If Truman had fired Macarthur and then sent Eisenhower to replace him in Korea...Truman would have found firing a second four star only a few short months later somewhat politically problematic.

Short of Petraus going nuts and threating to Nuke Kandahar, Peshawar, the Democratic Republic of Togo and Miami Beach...Petraus can now do or say pretty much what he wants over there. Obama isn't Lincoln and Petraus isn't Gen George McClellan or Ambrose Burnside. The last thing the American Liberal/Communists want is Petraus making an "Old soldiers never die" speach between now and the November after next.



DarwinsLilHelper -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 7:46:10 PM)

VinceML
quote:

Published reports (which I am too lazy to cite at the moment) inform us that Al Q have moved their base out of Afghanistan. There are Al Q units in Somalia and Yemen and in Wajiristan (sp?) Mission creep anyone?


For that matter. There are reports that Israel handed Obama and the Joint Chiefs the exact whereabouts of Osama Bin Laden two or three weeks before that Gaza Blockade shooting deal...But the report was deliberately buried because the Location was in Northern Iran.

Hows that for the kind of Mission Creep American Liberal/Communists don't want to know about.



thompsonx -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 11:33:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

In fact, you have a history of putting dictatorial governments in power, not just supporting them. Google "Mohammed Mossadeq".


We've put a stop to a couple as well. Google "Hitler"



Actually dick it was the russians who put a stop to hitler...perhaps if you were to actually get into the same zip code with a history book it would help.



thompsonx -> RE: Afghanistan, job done ? (6/24/2010 11:36:48 PM)

quote:

seriously, who gives a fuck about what becomes of Afghanistan?


Perhaps the people who live in afghanistan.



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