Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (Full Version)

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Whiplashsmile4 -> Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 1:09:42 AM)

The orignal title of this thread was going to be "to D/s or not to D/s" based upon the proverbial "To be or not to be" Shakespeare quote. However, I've changed it to "Labels, a Useful Hindrance".

Some of you are aware that I am happy to rip off my Dominant Orientation label, in order to swim freely in my own human soul. This thread is one of those moments. OKAY, some of you might still be seeing me as that Dude in the sparse loin cloth. (from the men in panties thread). ;p A new first for me to expose myself on such a level. Some of you know what my face looks like. Some of you have known for a long long time now. I used to have a profile up on the other side. Hard to believe I've been using this site on/off since 2004. Time passes quickly.

It's my intention to expose myself in another way, to even pose some questions and things for thought. I've been up and down this highway and have seen all kinds of G*d Damn things. (Lyrical Pun intended). Diversity can be both a bitch and a blessing. While orientation labels (or labels in general) are useful they may also ultimately become a hindrance. The same can be said for the D/s or M/s relationship labels. "Useful Hindrance" <--- another oxymoron.

Since I've been using this message board (think around 2006), I've seen countless threads come and go over "Useful Hindrances" and it will rightfully continue. At the moment, I'm debating about some possible Hindrances in my own personal life. Debating about my association with the Lifestyle through my active involvement on this website, might be as such. Whenever, I start sensing or feeling that something is becoming a hindrance in my life, is when start to question if it's worth it.

I'm sitting here reflecting upon the fact, that I've never got caught up in Munches, or Weekend Dungeon hopping. I just simply never rolled that way. I've always have had diversity in my life, including friendships and interests. BDSM does not define me in whole as a person. Never has, Never will.

This online stuff feels all back-ass-wards to me, to be honest. This ain't the way I've rolled for so many years, you know basically with wearing label tags on my sleeves. Fuck all, I was into TOPPING girls long before I knew jack shit about the Lifestyle. I had issues with my Dominant streak, or should I say being socially readjusted to playing well with others and not be so Domineering. (goes back to the childhood years). Sincerely, not a submissive. In many regards a bit of a rebel with a cause. I don't have authority issues per se, however I do have issues with dumb ass authority that's fucked up. Yet at the same time, I've tried to be respectful of authority in fucked up situations. Anyways, enough of me trying to explain myself here.

I've never suffered from any illusions that BDSM dating was somehow extremely different compared to vanilla dating, I never suffered from many other illusions as well. I do know that I roll in certain ways, most of my relationships were the result of rolling in the ways I did, combined with the way somebody else rolled. Now it's rolled kinky vanilla, it's rolled D/s and it's rolled M/s and Dom couple even. Diversity is both a bitch and a blessing. The one way I don't roll is submissive. There some things I do enjoy being on the recieving end of, long as I'm not treated like a submissive. So it makes me a little Switchy Iffy when it comes to some activities. (no big deal).

So yeah, the proverbial question of "to D/s or not to D/s", really does not matter to me. The kind of dynamics that interest me, are communiction, honesty and two people having meaning and purpose and use to one another. If somebody tries to boss me around, I'm pretty good at telling them to bite my ass. I'll talk and debate issue or problems. I can be a little hard headed and like to get my way at times. None the less, my best or better relationships I've had, regardless of the structure, were the ones with "Communication" and "Honesty". Two fucking basic and simple things. Lack of communication and lack of honesty, fucking kills. There's other things that can kill a relationship as well.

Honesty and Communication are far more important to me in a relationship compared to all the D/s or M/s in the fucking world. There's a few more things that are more important for me as well. D/s is not a deal breaker for me.

There was a thread where it was mentioned about Dominants throwing "Candy Jars of Hammers" at submissives. Sincerely I've never seen any relationships where that shit was going on last for very long. Seriously, I can't think of any case where it's fucking worked out for more than a few years tops.

When I discovered "the lifestyle" it was a blessing, I actually felt not so out of place, however my mentor (if you could call her that) was a friend who was a submissive. She made me swear that I'd never turn into an Asshole Dominant after learning about the lifestyle. She outright told me, that there were plenty of Asshole Dominant in the lifestyle. I have my asshole moments though. lol..

Perhaps this shed some light on one of the reasons, I don't have an active profile on the other side. The message board itself does not show what orientation people are. I really could care less about writting a lot of Dominant sounding Dribble for people to read on a profile either. I really don't like to show my face much either. Not on here, not on myspace or facebook even.

LuckyAlbatross, noticed a few years back that I seemed to be in some mad process of trying to sort through some thing. Reflecting upon everything, I think it has had everything to do with maintaining my individuality while wearing the orientation label. Back to things being a "Useful Hindrance".

It's rather fucking ironic the number of people, that get involved in BDSM thinking it the magic cure for their relationship woes or dysfunctional bullshit. The proverbial Dude that thinks he's gonna find some easy slave girl that will put up with their dysfunctional bullshit. The proverbial dysfunctional girl that can't seem to get their shit together thinking they will find some Sugar Daddy to provide everything for them and tell them what to do, because they can't function otherwise in the world.

I apologize, if this thread comes across like a bitch or a rant. Sincerely, it's not. I'm sincerely going through a bit of a process of mulling things over at length tonight.

I really don't have anything specific in mind for the kinds of responses I'm looking for. Starting a thread here is a bit like playing Russian Roulette. I still remember a thread I started about 'Shaping and Molding" and was pitched forked over it. Barely made it out without being burned alive (LOL). Case in point where I felt extremely too extreme.

Screw it, time for me to post this and toss some salt over my shoulder... and do a hail mary!



crazyml -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 2:25:45 AM)

Note to other readers : Yeah, it's a long OP, but worth the read.

To the OP:

You've described an issue (very well IMHO) that I have with the whole labels thing. While many people are proud to carry a big BDSM label (and why the hell shouldn't they be proud!), I just don't define myself that way.

When you say..

quote:


BDSM does not define me in whole as a person. Never has, Never will.


I'm totally, 100%, with you.

BDSM doesn't define me any more than "Sailor", "Academic", "Hiker" etc etc. All of these things are a part of me (and I'm proud and happy with them all) but no single thing defines me.

So I agree with the idea of "helpful hindrance" - in some contexts these labels are useful, and in others they can cloud the other aspects that make me up.

Oh and I really liked this ...
quote:


It's rather fucking ironic the number of people, that get involved in BDSM thinking it the magic cure for their relationship woes or dysfunctional bullshit. The proverbial Dude that thinks he's gonna find some easy slave girl that will put up with their dysfunctional bullshit. The proverbial dysfunctional girl that can't seem to get their shit together thinking they will find some Sugar Daddy to provide everything for them and tell them what to do, because they can't function otherwise in the world.


Totally!



Ligeia72 -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 2:29:15 AM)

When it comes to the idea of labels, each to their own in my opinion. So long as someone doesn't try and impart their idea of labelling/label system on me then they can stick a neon sign on top of their head, and call themselves the Virgin Mary as far as I care.

I'm kind of a hodge podge of BDSM interests, and styles, and attitudes myself so I gave up trying to label myself ages ago - it always ends up being a case of 'But wait, what about...?' Although having said that I guess I do label by interest, so I'll call myself a Sadomasochist rather than a Dominant or Submissive for example. Although even with that there are certain preconceived ideas of S&M that I don't fit into either. I actually bought this up in another thread, but the idea that 'Can I really be considered a Sadist just because my preference is for Topping in a scene, but I don't actually get off on inflicting pain'. At the end of the day though it doesn't really matter to me, I do what I like to do, and play how I like to play. Everything else is just semantics to me. [:)]



ExSteelAgain -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 2:53:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

LuckyAlbatross, noticed a few years back that I seemed to be in some mad process of trying to sort through some thing.


Imagine Lucky Albatross doing something like that.



IronBear -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 3:02:05 AM)

I use labels as a convenient means of categorising both myself and those who I meet face to face or on line. For me such labels are describing one part (albeit a small one at times), of the whole. Priest, Soldier, Business Man, Assassin, Protector, Interrogator or Prisoner are all true but only describe that portion of me and what I do or have done or been, no more, no less. I refer to a girl as a slave this indicates that she has shown me that side of hers again no more or no less. She is a person as diverse and intricate as I am and thus no greater and no lesser person. It is the relationship which defines the hierarchy. 



sunshinemiss -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 3:15:15 AM)

quote:

It's rather fucking ironic the number of people, that get involved in BDSM thinking it the magic cure for their relationship woes or dysfunctional bullshit. The proverbial Dude that thinks he's gonna find some easy slave girl that will put up with their dysfunctional bullshit. The proverbial dysfunctional girl that can't seem to get their shit together thinking they will find some Sugar Daddy to provide everything for them and tell them what to do, because they can't function otherwise in the world.



I am deeply dissapointed... deeply... disappointed - distraught even to find that a Sugar Daddy will not provide everything for me. That just ... well... hell.

What to do? Dang. Here comes plan B!

quote:


If somebody tries to boss me around, I'm pretty good at telling them to bite my ass.


I'd like to try that... Lemme see, lemme see... Come here, right now! (*sharpens the ole fangs and purrrrrrs)

On a serious note:
The reality is that people are people. I find it disturbing to see the women who move from man to man without taking a breather, not really spending time with them, just falling into a "role" instead of actually being with a person. By the same token, I wonder about the men who are not wise enough to say no, wait a reasonable time (at least until the grief process is over or at least mostly finished), and jump in. It seems so desperate to me. In the past, I've wondered - what is up with these people? What's that girl got that I don't that I actually need some down time between relationships? What's wrong with me? Of course I know that what I'm doing is ok, but it does give one pause.

I have stopped labeling myself. If I could remove the label on this profile, I would. Over on FL, I've put the "vanilla" tag on myself. Not because it's necessarily accurate (or not) but because I don't want to be seen as an "X" rather than as a woman. I also don't know how not-vanilla I am any more.

But hey, people are people... and why should it be... that you and I should get along ..... what was that song?

Best,
sunshine



Ligeia72 -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 4:02:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

I use labels as a convenient means of categorising both myself and those who I meet face to face or on line. For me such labels are describing one part (albeit a small one at times), of the whole. Priest, Soldier, Business Man, Assassin, Protector, Interrogator or Prisoner are all true but only describe that portion of me and what I do or have done or been, no more, no less. I refer to a girl as a slave this indicates that she has shown me that side of hers again no more or no less. She is a person as diverse and intricate as I am and thus no greater and no lesser person. It is the relationship which defines the hierarchy. 


I agree with this. Speaking from my own personal viewpoint, I think the problem arises when the label is what becomes the whole, as if that's the only part of the person that truly matters. It's not really any of my beeswax if someone labels themselves a Dom, Sub, Top, Bottom, D/s, M/s, but by the same token I want to connect with a whole person, and have the label just be my guide to a particular aspect of them and what they might enjoy/like. Someone might consider themselves to be the Domliest Dom who's ever Dommed, but if that's ALL they consider themselves to be, as if no other part of them matters except that one defining characteristic, I'm not really gonna be all that interested.

edited to add: this may possibly not be worded as well as what I'm actually wanting/trying to say - happy to clarify if there's any miscommunication of ideas.



pyroaquatic -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 4:26:00 AM)

Labels are built upon multiple placeholders.

I say this over and over again "Naming is the Particular Origin of Many Things". It is from the Tao Te Ching and I believe it.

A vapid self-fulfilling prophesy.

Conversely Labels are in tangent with Affirmations. A mantra if you would prefer. Wash, Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Some hoard labels, others let go.

quote:

Honesty and Communication are far more important to me in a relationship compared to all the D/s or M/s in the fucking world.


Transparency and Effective Communication. I can hardly find these traits in the vanilla sense let alone WIIWD. Vanilla and Chocolate merge everywhere in my opinion. Get the Freak on.

Oh the Delicious Flavors.

An intelligent read. Thanks for that thought nugget.



lally2 -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 4:30:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ligeia72
.I agree with this. Speaking from my own personal viewpoint, I think the problem arises when the label is what becomes the whole, as if that's the only part of the person that truly matters. .


oh bingo!! - well put

they are just labels to help people identify each other here.  once identified just drop all that shite and start getting on with who you are as people.

but some people do hang onto the title, from my side of the coin (sub) my experience is that too many Doms go around with a capital D shoved up their arse and forget to be themselves and relax.  it comes across as some sort of stiff mating dance and it stinks frankly.

you cant live youre life living up to a type. 

some do i think because theyre afraid that if they are themselves theyll be exposed as a flawed human being and not Dominant enough and that would screw with their image.  sadly there are subs that perpetuate that pressure and to some degree i had that notion too for a while. its taken me months to catch on  to the fact that the guy whose been quietly and gently waiting for me to get my shit together is who ive been looking for all of this time.



lally2 -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 4:34:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

.Screw it, time for me to post this and toss some salt over my shoulder... and do a hail mary!



[:D] - seems to have worked! - lol -



BonesFromAsh -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 5:06:36 AM)

You know, when you put a glass jar under hot water, the label comes off easier...glue and all.  I have a collection of pretty jars I like to line up on the kitchen window sill and fill with flowers.

When the jars have no labels they're just containers waiting to be filled.

I see people like that.

Thanks for a wonderful post....it was long but it was worth the time.  I've read it twice.[;)]



LadyPact -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 7:07:39 AM)

My first reaction on reading this was, well, doesn't everybody want to honesty and communication label?  I would like to think that they do, but that might be a little naive of Me.

I know we've talked about this subject before on various threads, Whip.  It's not the label itself that is the hindrance.  It's people thinking that you slap that label on yourself and that's good enough.  There's this myth that all it takes after that is to find somebody with the opposite label and everything runs in a pattern from there.  One takes charge, the other let's them be in charge and everything is hunky dorey.

Ummmmm, yeah.  It doesn't really work like that.  D/s or M/s or BDSM isn't the easy way to obtain or maintain a relationship.  It's not enough to say "I'm a Master so I want a slave" or "I'm a sub so I want a Dominant".  Sticking one label or another on yourself doesn't mean that potential partners are suddenly going to be throwing themselves at you any more than they were out in the vanilla world.  If anything, it just became a little bit more difficult because now you have even more areas of compatibility to examine because of wiitwd and you have to match in those areas, too.

Those labels aren't the get out of jail free card on building healthy relationships, honesty, and communication.  They are supposed to be the place you start.  If you want to call yourself a Dominant, a submissive, or anything else, you really need to figure out what that means to you before you even start dealing with somebody else. 



juliaoceania -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 7:30:38 AM)

The quote I list first in my sigline is something I believe... labels can be useful, but are best when they are self applied and not taken too seriously....



At this point I hesitate to be labeled anything, not because I don't feel the label of submissive is completely misplaced in regard to me, but because at this point I do not feel like living up to other people's expectations of what that label means. I just want to be "me". If being who I am isn't what someone else wants, they can look elsewhere, and I say that with no malice. I just don't want to disappoint anyone, nor do I want to compromise myself



juliaoceania -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 7:45:01 AM)

quote:

My first reaction on reading this was, well, doesn't everybody want to honesty and communication label?  I would like to think that they do, but that might be a little naive of Me.


I think that people often do this reverse engineering, they find this label that they want to apply to themselves, and then they take the preconceived idea of what that label means and try to become that label. They also use themselves as a yardstick from which ti judge if others rightly apply it to themselves... hence the one twue way



NuevaVida -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 7:59:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think that people often do this reverse engineering, they find this label that they want to apply to themselves, and then they take the preconceived idea of what that label means and try to become that label.


That was me, once.  I tried to fit the description instead of just being myself.  It didn't work out so well for me in the long run.

I now really don't place a lot of importance on what I might be labeled.  Like you, it's more important for me to just be myself, and everything else falls into place from there.  Labels are a decent starting point in basic communication but I think where people go wrong is when they place more importance on the definition (or what it "should" be) than on the person actually talking.



DesFIP -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 8:03:02 AM)

Honesty and Communication are far more important to me in a relationship compared to all the D/s or M/s in the fucking world. There's a few more things that are more important for me as well. D/s is not a deal breaker for me.

The only thing I want to say about this is that you also say you don't/can't roll submissive. So d/s can be a deal breaker for you, despite all the communication and honesty. Because if the other person rolls dominant also and needs you to be a submissive, then no matter what, you won't make it work as anything other than friends.

But a damned good post. Because I also agree with just about everything you've said, knowing who you are is foremost, relationship issues are relationship issues no matter what. And my rule of thumb is that if you can't talk about it, you shouldn't be doing it.



LadyPact -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (6/30/2010 8:08:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I think that people often do this reverse engineering, they find this label that they want to apply to themselves, and then they take the preconceived idea of what that label means and try to become that label. They also use themselves as a yardstick from which ti judge if others rightly apply it to themselves... hence the one twue way

I agree with this, julia, but I think those are areas where folks just don't know any better.  They get started in wiitwd with this preconceived idea of what it is and figure that's what they have to be.  It can be kind of confusing at first.



TheLadyIsADomme -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (7/4/2010 8:29:15 PM)

FR

I think this is the same struggle I was having with the definition of "lifestyle" a few weeks back. The labels don't mean anything because there is so much room for interpretation as to what those labels can mean to each person. I remember more than a few threads where we have talked about expectations of behavior or "acting" a certain way as dominant or submissive; another way of labelling people.
I am just me - the best me I can be.

Reminds me of a quote I read somewhere, can't recall where now: Remember you are unique, just like everyone else.



ranja -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (7/5/2010 2:20:12 AM)

"It's rather fucking ironic the number of people, that get involved in BDSM thinking it the magic cure for their relationship woes or dysfunctional bullshit."

That stood out to me...'cos my relationship was an enormous big woe and full of dysfunctional bullshit
and then i stumbled across bdsm and lots of labels and people talking about doing certain stuff because they were 'wired' a certain way... it was amazing... i just sponged it all up and things started making sense... and now i am baffled as to why it took me so long to actually understand these things about myself and my Husband
... i sure am lots dumber than i give myself credit for

anyhow... i do not care too much for labels now but they sure helped to make a difference to the mess i was in. Al the terminology gave me a sort of springboard, or a clue to solve a puzzle... and it helped me to take responsibility and make things better
and it did save my marriage... yes, pretty much a magic cure really



sunshinemiss -> RE: Labels, a Useful Hindrance. (7/5/2010 2:26:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh

You know, when you put a glass jar under hot water, the label comes off easier...glue and all.  I have a collection of pretty jars I like to line up on the kitchen window sill and fill with flowers.

When the jars have no labels they're just containers waiting to be filled.

I see people like that.

Thanks for a wonderful post....it was long but it was worth the time.  I've read it twice.[;)]


*can I be a martini glass with an orange, brown, and yellow sunflower in it?

Back on topic:

While I can appreciate the *need* for labels, I try to see them as tools. Used well and properly, they are wonderful and helpful. Don't forget though - every tool can become a weapon.

YMMV,
best,
sunshine



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