RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage

RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (Full Version)

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seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 10:17:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I think the issue here is pay scale. As was mentioned earlier, you can import cheaper workers who will have worked in factories before, be regimented to that sort of life, which Americans usually are not. I have done assembly line work. Julia, while not to question your experience with assembly lines ... I have to ask you, when was the last time you were in a plant? The ones today are high tech marvels that require minimal manual intervention. The bulk of the work is engineering and repair ... very skilled jobs. And there is a lot of this talent available today ... So I am totally suspect of any report, that says there is a shortage of skilled manufacturing workers, especially when the byline of the report, is quote: BEDFORD, Ohio You may live in California ... but there is truly a surplus, in the Midwest US.

Louve00 -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 10:24:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery In my consulting days, I once designed a program for four area manufacturers participating in a funded pilot to train unskilled welfare folks to these factory jobs--circuit board soldering, some computer work, stuff like that. A HUGE part of the program, though, was basic job search and life management skills. The employers complained that when the people they hired weren't sure what to do---they just left. Literally left, never to be seen again, not even to pick up a check. We're talking simple coping skills here against a lifetime of defeatism and uncertainty. While it's simple enough, though, it's not the kind of thing corporations are at all prepared to deal with or train for. And not just this bottom sector--ask anyone who works with traditional and adult students at a community college--a large part of this education is learning self-confidence, how to learn, persistence, completion of tasks, time management, asking for help when needed, recognizing when that need arises---all this along with actually mastering program content. Again, not something a corporation is prepared to deal with. It's among the reasons they look for college graduates. I guess what I'm about to say is going to sound naive and ignorant, but...as I've been working and living life...when did all of this inability happen. Granted, I know about those soldering training things. I sucked at soldering lol. I guess I just didn't have a light enough, precise enough touch...and when I worked in that factory job, soldering wasn't one of the skills I wasn't used for. But there were tons of other jobs to do. A product, any product, has more to it than soldering, a computer, or any one thing to make it what it is. And factories make those things step by step. I couldn't solder, but I could pack. I could fold. I could make boxes. I could label the boxes...and so on and so forth. A job is intimidating if you start out intimidated. But accomplishment can erase some of that intimidation and even bring on some confidence and achievement and a feeling of doing good. Time and time again, I thank my lucky stars I was born in the era I was born in. Things weren't so heavily analyzed, scrutinized and objectable. There was room, plenty of room for advancement and achievement and being a good employee if the will was there. Nowadays there are more people being diagnosed with disabling diseases and there is more intolerance and more negativity than I ever had to deal with coming up. Had I had to deal with it, I'd like to think I'd have gotten beyond it, but seems like most aren't these days? So I don't know. I know with all the obstacles (whether for the right or wrong reasons, the true or untrue reasons) that are in place to hire people successfully today that are in place...and it all seems to be getting worse, not better...when did the standards change? When did it start to change and we accepted it without saying "hey!". How did we get to such a puny, know nothing, do nothing, but expect everything for nothing kind of place? And then, I think back to the days of working in the hospital, and think of the older patients. Those old, sick people would lie in bed with broken bones, with painful conditions....bearing it all. Doing their physical therapy when told, taking pain meds only when it was time without a single bitch for more. And while those old patients were enduring it all and getting better...the younger patients with the broken bones and painful conditions were screaming for pain meds before it was time. Refusing to get up for therapy. Being pure pains in the asses for the nurses that had to care for them. And it was clear to me then that the older generation was made of the "tougher stuff" than the younger generation was. Is that it? Are we all getting weaker and weaker and punier and punier, by default of our own generations? Again, I don't know, but it leaves me to wondering.

Musicmystery -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 10:29:00 AM)
The reason I was an effective consultant is that I didn't get into philosophical why is the world so messed up distractions. I took what they wanted to achieve, looked at the reality of the situation, designed and implemented solutions measured by bottom line results. I got tired of consulting and left when I was asked to teach because I was tired of arguing with people caught up in why is the world so messed up distractions over result oriented solutions. People--including management--don't actually want to solve problems, more often than not. They just want to complain about them and assign the blame. Overall, it's about ego and how the world would be perfect it everyone saw things their way. Changing how they do things to achieve better results is an absurd notion to these folks--just straighten out the others. If you want things to be different, you have to make changes. As Peter Drucker put it, other people aren't the problem--they are the only available solution. You have to learn to work with them.

popeye1250 -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 10:34:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery In my consulting days, I once designed a program for four area manufacturers participating in a funded pilot to train unskilled welfare folks to these factory jobs--circuit board soldering, some computer work, stuff like that. A HUGE part of the program, though, was basic job search and life management skills. The employers complained that when the people they hired weren't sure what to do---they just left. Literally left, never to be seen again, not even to pick up a check. We're talking simple coping skills here against a lifetime of defeatism and uncertainty. While it's simple enough, though, it's not the kind of thing corporations are at all prepared to deal with or train for. And not just this bottom sector--ask anyone who works with traditional and adult students at a community college--a large part of this education is learning self-confidence, how to learn, persistence, completion of tasks, time management, asking for help when needed, recognizing when that need arises---all this along with actually mastering program content. Again, not something a corporation is prepared to deal with. It's among the reasons they look for college graduates. Half the waiters/waitresses/ bartenders here are college graduates. Perhaps those companies should hire Veterans. I don't think you'd see a veteran just "leaving" when they didn't know what to do. We used to have something called "OJT" in this country, on the job training. And it worked very well. The title of this post is somewhat misleading, are these factory jobs "returning" from overseas? Are cos. finally figuring out that if they want to sell their goods and services in this country that they need to hire Americans and pay them a decent wage so that they may be able to afford those goods and services? When you have hundreds of thousands or millions of blue collar factory jobs that's what creates all the white collar jobs that college graduates can fill so that they (don't) have to be waiters/waitresses/ bartenders. All those "free trade" deals are not only the working class's enemy but also the middle class's enemy. Also, most jobs in business simply don't require a college degree. They (do) require experience. Most managers can be brought up "through the ranks" promoted from within the co. If I owned a business I'm much better off relying on people who've been there for 7 - 8 years than some 24 year old with some sort of degree. It's not "business" who is pushing all this "degree" stuff, it's the colleges who are "selling" the degrees. The waitress with a degree in psychology or sociology or poli-sci isn't doing as well as the college who sold her that degree for $125-$150 k. If you listen to the colleges "everyone" (needs) a degree! If you listen to a Cadillac salesman "everyone" (needs) a Cadillac. That's where the money is these days, selling people "degrees" that won't really benefit them! You start a small college and get accredited and glom onto "govt. programs" and teach inner-city students to be "social workers" and within five years you'll be a millionaire. Garaunteed! You don't need a "degree" to be a waitress.

Musicmystery -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 10:39:15 AM)
I disagree completely. In fact, community colleges offer a wide variety of certificate programs, preparing people for trades from nursing to automobile mechanics. Businesses, however, use degrees as a screening tool. They do this for a variety of reasons--some valid, some perhaps not so much. I DO agree that college is not the only way to learn these skills. But I see primarily people skirting this and floundering, rather than putting in what it takes to succeed. You would agree with me, I think, that give us $10, a shovel, and a pick-up truck, and we could start a business anywhere in America. But you and I also have skills we bring with us.

Louve00 -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 10:41:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery I got tired of consulting and left when I was asked to teach because I was tired of arguing with people caught up in why is the world so messed up distractions over result oriented solutions. People--including management--don't actually want to solve problems, more often than not. They just want to complain about them and assign the blame. Overall, it's about ego and how the world would be perfect it everyone saw things their way. Changing how they do things to achieve better results is an absurd notion to these folks--just straighten out the others. If you want things to be different, you have to make changes. As Peter Drucker put it, other people aren't the problem--they are the only available solution. You have to learn to work with them. Peter Drucker was an insightful man. I'll have to google him. [sm=smile.gif] And the highlighted section of your words Musicmystery, I guess is probably the reason so many situations have deteriorated. They too, need to google Peter Drucker!! [;)]

popeye1250 -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 11:28:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery I disagree completely. In fact, community colleges offer a wide variety of certificate programs, preparing people for trades from nursing to automobile mechanics. Businesses, however, use degrees as a screening tool. They do this for a variety of reasons--some valid, some perhaps not so much. I DO agree that college is not the only way to learn these skills. But I see primarily people skirting this and floundering, rather than putting in what it takes to succeed. You would agree with me, I think, that give us $10, a shovel, and a pick-up truck, and we could start a business anywhere in America. But you and I also have skills we bring with us. Music, when I got out of college I went to work for a large insurance company. My first day on the job my trainer told me; "forget everything you learned in college, we're going to teach you our way." And they did. And the only reason I got the job is because I was in the USCG. That's all the interviewer wanted to talk about. And the biggest producers in that office were two older guys with no degrees. Sales is where the "big money" is, "the tip of the spear." Those guys were probably making $200-$300K back then in the 1980's! I thought I was a millionaire making $70k! A lot of money back in those days. Now sure, if you're going to be a specialist like a Nurse or Engineer or Accountant of course you need a degree or certificate. But even Engineering and Accounting can be "farmed out." Last week I was talking to one of my CG buddie's wives who's a Physician's Assistant out in K.C. and is halfway through her Ph D. in Nursing. She said their daughter told them she wants to go to college to get a degree in psychology! She said; "I'm not paying $150k so she can't get a job!" She said they're going to sit her down and "have a talk with her." She said; "I'd rather see her get a two year degree in Nursing" an L.P.N. I guess. That way at least she could get a job right away at decent money. Probably more than an MBA working as the "manager" at a drugstore or at Home Depot. (YahooNews a couple weeks ago) I knew a few business owners up in New England and they all promoted from "within" the company. Loyalty and experience were rewarded as they should be.

juliaoceania -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 11:36:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania those people were laid off in 1990 Try the last two years ... sorry ... it just doesn't make sense. I know there have been manufacturing job losses as little as two years ago, I was being partially facetious, because we have been steadily moving from a manufacturing base to a service economy for decades... we have been bleeding these sorts of jobs. The fact they are coming back is because our dollar weakened and our wages have stagnated, meaning they can find people willing to work for shit wages and it pencils out to bring those jobs back

Musicmystery -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 11:40:30 AM)
Again, I don't disagree per se. A degree is one factor, and too many people expect it to be a magic ticket. It's not--skills are. Too many graduates have no clue about the real world. I DO disagree with your last two sentences--the days of employer/employee loyalty are gone. Waiting around to get promoted isn't going to cut it. People have to learn to take charge of their careers and present themselves as workers providing a service for their client, the employer. Running their own lives as a business will change a number of poor decisions to better productivity and long term careers better insulated from the ups and downs of the real world.

juliaoceania -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 11:44:16 AM)
quote: Julia, while not to question your experience with assembly lines ... I have to ask you, when was the last time you were in a plant? I worked in a computer software company 21 years ago, Sierra Online...packaging games... I also worked in a mail room, which felt like the same sort of job, sorting fliers, etc. much like an assembly job... This was over 20 yrs ago.. I do not lie about my work experience. I am 42 years old and I have had many employment experiences, just as I am sure you have.... I have been a hotel maid, a dishwasher, landscaping, a laundress, prep cook, cashier, shoe salesperson, middle manager, business owner, I even worked for a Christmas tree farm[:D] As far as the rest of your post.... skilled work, well, training used to be provided by the employer, and as far as running the machines, one does not need an engineering degree to do that. We have many engineers in this country also... I would say that it still comes down to wanting to import cheap labor...

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 12:04:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania those people were laid off in 1990 Try the last two years ... sorry ... it just doesn't make sense. I know there have been manufacturing job losses as little as two years ago, I was being partially facetious, because we have been steadily moving from a manufacturing base to a service economy for decades... we have been bleeding these sorts of jobs. The fact they are coming back is because our dollar weakened and our wages have stagnated, meaning they can find people willing to work for shit wages and it pencils out to bring those jobs back I agree. The other two reasons are freight costs, and rising pay overseas. Those ships on the ocean consume a lot of dollars in fuel costs ... and wages overseas are rising ... (while as you correctly state, ours are falling). quote: I would say that it still comes down to wanting to import cheap labor... Again, I agree. Sponsor an immigrant, and the company has two years of basically slave labor in the US. Once they get free, they get higher paying jobs ... and the company is importing another. Natural born Americans get displaced, because of age and/or higher wages ... then cannot find work. Seems like we really agree ... I guess I just took offense to the 1990 comment you had made in jest. As I was just volunteering at the food bank for unemployed workers. And the sad part is, the Director told me two years ago, these were the biggest donors!

Brain -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 1:28:24 PM)
You can join and read it for free but here it is: FTA: As unlikely as it would seem against this backdrop, manufacturers who want to expand find that hiring is not always easy. During the recession, domestic manufacturers appear to have accelerated the long-term move toward greater automation, laying off more of their lowest-skilled workers and replacing them with cheaper labor abroad. Now they are looking to hire people who can operate sophisticated computerized machinery, follow complex blueprints and demonstrate higher math proficiency than was previously required of the typical assembly line worker. Makers of innovative products like advanced medical devices and wind turbines are among those growing quickly and looking to hire, and they too need higher skills. “That’s where you’re seeing the pain point,” said Baiju R. Shah, chief executive of BioEnterprise, a nonprofit group in Cleveland trying to turn the region into a center for medical innovation. “The people that are out of work just don’t match the types of jobs that are here, open and growing.” The increasing emphasis on more advanced skills raises policy questions about how to help low-skilled job seekers who are being turned away at the factory door and increasingly becoming the long-term unemployed. This week, the Senate reconsidered but declined to extend unemployment benefits, after earlier extensions raised the maximum to 99 weeks. quote: ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo Tried to read the link ... but it is password protected ... so I don't know what it says. However, on the surface, I find it a little hard to believe, they can't find skilled manufacturing workers, in Ohio ... or Michigan or Indiana ... for that matter! Something doesn't feel right about this ... is there a way you can post the definition of "the kind of skilled workers needed" ? quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven Yeah, that's what SHOULD happen. But my guess is that this is a preliminary to "there's nobody qualified in the States so we need to get permission to hire from abroad". If so, expect quite a bit of flak and possible even riots. Exactly what I suspect also Steven ... it is easy for me to believe this is the root of it. Because in this area of the country ... Legal Immigration, is a bigger problem ... than people realize!

Musicmystery -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 1:30:02 PM)
I do think unemployment benefits should come with mandatory training programs. Of course, then they'd have to be designed and paid for..... And how to sort out honest persistent job searchers from those needing retraining? But I think a lot more people than should sit around and hope for the best when they should be making hay.

juliaoceania -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 2:36:37 PM)
At least unemployment now allows people to be in school while they draw benefits as long as it does not interfere with job searches. I find it much better use of time if one cannot find work to use that time to better their chances of doing so by getting educated

Jeffff -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 3:16:25 PM)
FR..... Is it possible they can't find skilled workers because they are offering sub standard wages? Or perhaps no benefits? Many of us are making less than we did even 3 years ago. I am at about 60% for the exact same job. At too much more it would be silly for me to do this. I am not REALLY happy about it now.... but I realize how thing are. I also realize you don't get skilled workers for 10.00 an hour

Musicmystery -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 4:33:38 PM)
Markets sure cut both ways, don't they. I agree. Skilled workers are going to quickly decide to strike out on their own at low wage rates.

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 6:59:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brain hire people who can operate sophisticated computerized machinery, follow complex blueprints and demonstrate higher math proficiency than was previously required of the typical assembly line worker. Brain, FYI .... I have seen people in Ohio, Indiana, Michigan as well as Oshawa, Ontario do this without even graduating from secondary schools. It depends on the system design, training, documentation and quality control systems. Plus, hungry people, on unemployment, praying for a job, are really highly motivated to learn! Perhaps, the "expert" quoted ... really doesn't know as much as he is professed to know. Or spent too much time in MBA class! [;)] In my mind this article, reinforces some points about companies really wanting to bring in immigrants ... as JuliaOceania, Dark Steven and others have suggested. And by the way, thanks for posting the details ... I know I can join for free ... but ... I have no reason to give them my email ... name and other details ... just to read an article to comment on here ... thank you. That said, great idea for a post! [:)]

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/3/2010 7:02:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff FR..... Is it possible they can't find skilled workers because they are offering sub standard wages? Or perhaps no benefits? Many of us are making less than we did even 3 years ago. I am at about 60% for the exact same job. At too much more it would be silly for me to do this. I am not REALLY happy about it now.... but I realize how thing are. I also realize you don't get skilled workers for 10.00 an hour Jeff, and as soon as the economy picks up, and all the employees leave these kinds of employers ... The hue and cry will go out " we can't find qualified workers "! Excellent points ....

popeye1250 -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/4/2010 12:55:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Again, I don't disagree per se. A degree is one factor, and too many people expect it to be a magic ticket. It's not--skills are. Too many graduates have no clue about the real world. I DO disagree with your last two sentences--the days of employer/employee loyalty are gone. Waiting around to get promoted isn't going to cut it. People have to learn to take charge of their careers and present themselves as workers providing a service for their client, the employer. Running their own lives as a business will change a number of poor decisions to better productivity and long term careers better insulated from the ups and downs of the real world. Music, and I'd have to disagree with you there. Most jobs in this country are generated by small businesses of between 10 and 300 employees. I know many people up in New England who have worked for the same companies for 20-40 years. They know their companies, products, customers, and business practices inside and out. They're well paid and have good benefits. In small businesses loyalty is still "in fashion" and probably always will be. Not so in Bank of America or the big brokerage houses I guess. True, if you're looking for "promotions" sometimes a big corporation is the place to be but not always. In the 80's and 90's "small" was where it was at. Many companies grew exponentially. Some went public and issued stock on the Nasdaq. The people I know up in New England are happy living there and wouldn't want to move if they accepted a promotion. Not everyone wants to move. But, for the most part these are local companies. I worked for a large nation-wide co. My degree in Bus. Admin. didn't help me at all. That's why unless you're going to specialize (Law, Medicine, Acounting, Teaching etc) I'm not real big on degrees. I think I mentioned this in here a few years ago. There was a jock type guy who worked there and had a degree in History. One time I asked him what the Magna Carta was all about. He said to me; "How the hell would I know, I played football in college!" As far as I'm concerned I wasted my time getting a degree in Bus. Admin. Too "general" of a degree. You can learn all that "on the job." If I could do it over again I would have gone to school and gotten an R.N. BSN. Much more interesting than business, creative hours, travel if you want and pretty decent pay depending on where you work. In those days I remember seeing ads in the Boston papers for R.N.s for $40 per hour. Most of the people I mentioned above don't have degrees. If I decided to come out of retirement with my degree and work for one of their companies they wouldn't be working for me, I'd be working for them.

Nineveh -> RE: Factory Jobs Return, but Employers Find Skills Shortage (7/4/2010 2:11:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: Nineveh Easy fix here. Unpaid internships to train employees. They can make them competitive like the financial firms do. You are assuming they would need the type of skilled workers that would be amongst the ranks of college students, that is probably not the types of skills they need. Internships go to college students, so you have to find college students that would want factory jobs. Most college students I know are spending 10s of thousands on a college education, they are not spending this to get a factory job... just sayin' I think this is where the interests of corporate america to invest in our people comes in... educating people to perform the work you need done is a part of the cost of doing business. If you want people to have those skills you need to pay to train them. Education is not free, and I am really tired of corporations trying to get a skilled workforce without paying for it. not all internships go to college students. I know in the town I live in if they posted an unpaid internship in the paper they'd get a lot of applicants for it. The training would be valuable to the people even if they didn't get the job.

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