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Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 11:46:39 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		I’m a bit perplexed and I live in a rather conservative area, so when I want a more sweeping viewpoint I come here and read, ask a question or stir you guys up on an issue.

I have some questions I would like to see honestly discussed with regards to immigration.

I live close to Fremont, Nebraska and have delivered to that hog plant there; concurrently I deliver hogs and cattle to many plants across the country. The town I live near has 2 packinghouses and we have a large Hispanic population. I don’t have any issues with them being here, the ones I personally know are good family men and hard workers. There was one fellow I liked a lot that got wind that some agency was looking for him and he disappeared.

I guess what I want to know is what part of the word illegal is so hard to understand?

It’s obvious to me that with the baby boomers starting to retire, and with a shortage of workers/tax payers on the horizon we need to immigrate some rather large number of folks. So shouldn’t we get busy finding a way to make that work?

Now just like we vet a Judicial Nominee, a Diplomat or a Military General shouldn’t we somewhat vet those wanting to be one of us? I mean since it’s something we have some ability to do now, shouldn’t we? I want to welcome people that want to be here, contribute to the greater good and become proud hard working Americans. I’m also in favor of a fair and safe guest worker program. If we have to increase the number of those allowed in through legal means then by all means do so. Why would that be so hard?

But to defend an illegal act simply for political gain seems almost criminal if not treasonous on the part of those that have sworn to uphold our laws.

Why do we have to have separate legislation pertaining to securing the borders and immigration reform? They seem to be interdependent issues to me.

Make an “a” and “b” part to the bill. It seems like common sense that we would have to stop the leak in the ship before we could expect the bailing of water to reap a benefit.

So in part “a “ we have border security and related issues that help stop the easy access of the illegal.

Then in part “b” we have the reform to the parts of the immigration system that are defined as broken. What I’m getting from all the news sources is that both sides (Dem or Rep) on this topic will not act before the other side acts. The Dems want Immigration reform first because they say the Reps won’t act if they get their border build up and the Reps won’t act on reform for virtually the same reasoning.

Now here’s where a bit of leadership from Obama might help…. We need both, so do both, and NO PORK……


I used to patrol the east/west border. I really don’t care if we have to make the border that strict and militaristic. Just get it done and protect all aspects of the United States. This should be a no brainer.

Concurrently it’s obvious that we have to have more people in this country to meet future needs. So let’s screen them faster, open the numbers to levels sustainable, in career fields that we need them and get with it.

If we need nurses to meet needs we don’t immigrate meat cutters, if we need chemists, we don’t immigrate hotel clerks. I mean those that aren’t here that want to be and aren’t educated or skilled in areas we need will have to wait or meet the need, sure it isn’t always fair, but that’s the way it is.

I don’t think this is all that hard to understand once you separate the issue from the political agendas.

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I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.
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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 11:50:24 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I would say that your post skipped over a very pertinent part of the problem, if no one would hire them, they wouldn't come...


And there it is in a nutshell

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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 11:52:31 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I don’t think this is all that hard to understand once you separate the issue from the political agendas.

That's really the heart of the problem.

I heard an analyst on NPR discuss this a few days ago, in response to why Obama has taken so long to take up immigration reform. The Republicans don't really want meaningful immigration reform, nor do the Deomocrats, for different reasons. The speaker was amazed Obama was willing to take it up at all, as it's a long term problem that needs Congress to take political risks (i.e., losing re-election) to address.

It's not hard to understand at all. But the issue isn't separate from the political agendas.

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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 11:56:50 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		It really is like every other issue, who profits? Follow the money trail, and at the root is that there are those who are profiting from illegal immigration, and they aren't just undocumented workers that profit from it... those that employ them do too. Those who employ them are not held accountable for the cost of illegal immigration, just like corporations are not charged the true cost of pollution into the environment. If those who were caught employing undocumented workers were fined to reflect the cost to taxpayers for patrolling the borders, etc, they might not hire them anymore

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 12:03:54 PM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I would say that your post skipped over a very pertinent part of the problem, if no one would hire them, they wouldn't come...


And there it is in a nutshell


Uhmmmm, no I didn't. I live 12 miles from one of those packing house towns and I know alot of the workkers and management folk.

We have the laws to deal with this to some degree, but they do need improved. Hence I spoke to reform, part "b".

But if the empolyers aren't doing anything illegal then we sure can't blame an American for working within the system that is in place.

Like I said, what part of illegal is so hard to understand?

It's talkintg points like this don't hire them issue that has this entire process bogged down in political bullshit and misdirection. Or at least that's what I see.

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Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 12:04:37 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Illegal is not just an economic problem.  It is a children/family problem as well.  Companies are not punished for the illegal problem, workers and their families are punished.  And in some cases after companies actively recruited them to work.

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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 12:06:22 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		The whole border thing is ridonkulous in my opinion. Let people go where they need to be, where they want to be.

Look I went across the border in May. It is so militaristic and bad for the body (the body scan shit is not cool imo) sure you can refuse to go in it and be frisked down by a nice unsmiling lady which is good they have the option.

The freaking white people stole this cuntry in the first place. It is based on deception, lies and subterfuge.

I had an orange in my bag. I forgot it was in there. Oranges are not allowed to cross the cuntry. They had these mad chemical wands they put all in my stuff. They threw out a little bottle of face spray I have been traveling all over God's land with for a decade and now it is forbidden because it is 4 oz instead of 3 or some stupid shit.

My orange was undetected. All the freaking expensive bru ha ha and the orange went through.

It is a bunch of silly smoke and mirrors.

No one owns this cuntry. You were born here cool. Go back in your history where the freak did you come from?

Back off Jack. It is a free world, let whomever wants to go whereever the freak they want go.

There are people up to no good all over the world. Putting a line across the sand is not a solution.

You think people from other cuntries are stealing your jobs? What a joke. It is a stolen cuntry.

Relax, red neckness is a high anxiety occupation.

It aint YOURS to give or take. This is the world, deal with it.

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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 12:14:38 PM   
xBullx


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Joined: 10/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

If those who were caught employing undocumented workers were fined to reflect the cost to taxpayers for patrolling the borders, etc, they might not hire them anymore



Agreed ........... So we need officials in office that will act on this, or people that won't buy the products of those doing just what you say.

The funny thing is that the same people that want the meat packer to stop hiring illegals, assuming they did this knowingly (I do know they are legally limited on what they can actually question or ask a perspective employee) hire illegals also want cheap ham and steaks.

But I'm ok with tougher laws against hiring illegals. I am also for the guest worker program. The workers could at least be vetted to some degree then.

Again it seems like you need to help write part "b" of my bill.

_____________________________

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Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 12:19:13 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Some of the problem can be solved if people would commit to buy their groceries (meat and produce) locally.  It will be time consuming, more expensive  and in some cases inconvenient, but it would help.  It will take a multi-prong approach to solve the immigration problem, being sensitive to cultural differences and the plight of illegal families.  I do not think the answer is in search/seizure of hispanic-looking people living in border states.  I find the entire AZ situation sad.

< Message edited by KatyLied -- 7/3/2010 12:20:14 PM >

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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 12:22:31 PM   
xBullx


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Joined: 10/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Illegal is not just an economic problem.  It is a children/family problem as well.  Companies are not punished for the illegal problem, workers and their families are punished.  And in some cases after companies actively recruited them to work.


Now I can't be sure that it is always the case, but it is in my actual experience that those here with their families are most often legal and become active, positive and valued parts of their new communities. I do speak from experience too. My wife used to be the librarian in Denison and she helped many families find the right agencies to help them with their immigration confusion.

I also know that it is a tactic of the illegal to use family ties (assuming they are really family) to get into the USA. That is one of the best ways for the immigration attorney to help you get a green card. They'll ask you if you have family in the USA. Another issue to be seen to in part "b" of our bill.

But in the end it still boils down to what is and what isn't legal. If a stock broke that is involved in insider trading goes to prison his or her family suffers as well, but the law is the law.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to KatyLied)
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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 12:23:36 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Have you seen "Food, Inc"?

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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 12:25:09 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
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Status: offline 		Do I want too?


I am already a picky eater. It isn't going to help me, is it?


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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 12:55:17 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

The whole border thing is ridonkulous in my opinion. Let people go where they need to be, where they want to be.



Yeah, it's obvious that this whole human nature, clan thing, protecting your tribe and whatever else you are assume should be disregarded is alluding your sense of logic.

quote:



The freaking white people stole this cuntry in the first place. It is based on deception, lies and subterfuge.



Note sarcasm to follow:

(Damn those fuckin' white people anyway. And those damn Asians that crossed the Barring Straits way back when.... Who gave them the right?!!!!)

This country? Are you from this country?

Your credibility within this discussion is on shaky ground at this point. The fact is might makes right, that's human nature, Darwinism in fact. Not all that convenient for those that want to just do what they want...

quote:



I had an orange in my bag. I forgot it was in there. Oranges are not allowed to cross the cuntry. They had these mad chemical wands they put all in my stuff. They threw out a little bottle of face spray I have been traveling all over God's land with for a decade and now it is forbidden because it is 4 oz instead of 3 or some stupid shit.



Your credibility is still slipping. You see the orange thing is important because parasites and other things harmful to produce/agriculture in this country or any other country is migrated by people that "forgot" they had it. That has a negative effect on the greater good, maybe not your greater good, but none the less the greater good of those that actually give a shit about your welfare why you apparently disregard theirs.

As far as your fluids, well it's these nice people that you think should be traveling as they will that have us taking off our shoes at the airport.

quote:



My orange was undetected. All the freaking expensive bru ha ha and the orange went through.



You sound proud of your act smuggling. Considering you probably didn't mean to do it, I assume you destroyed the orange immediately upon finding it? I mean just because the Government can't get it right doesn't mean you have to be half assed, right? I mean you probably want employers to do the right thing and not hire illegals, right? Abide by the laws? Or should we just all get more guns and say fuck the whole works?

quote:



No one owns this cuntry. You were born here cool. Go back in your history where the freak did you come from?



I own my stake in this claim. Would you care to come and attempt to remove me?

quote:



Back off Jack. It is a free world, let whomever wants to go whereever the freak they want go.



Nothings free....nothing..........Jack-ette.

quote:



There are people up to no good all over the world. Putting a line across the sand is not a solution.



We appoint you Ambassador to Iran, just hussle on over there and inform them of what you are telling me here. If they imprison you for whatever reason we'll get to your case in the order it was received.

quote:



You think people from other cuntries are stealing your jobs? What a joke. It is a stolen cuntry.



Conquest and larceny are not concurrent themes. I'm curious, is this your Candian way of getting to bit of attention? If you don't like the way us Americans do things, come on down and set thingts straight.

quote:



Relax, red neckness is a high anxiety occupation.



ohhhhh, I'm crushed.... you've resorted to name calling and or stereo typing.

quote:



It aint YOURS to give or take. This is the world, deal with it.



You're a little mental and disfunctional, but like I said come on down here and take it away. 

< Message edited by xBullx -- 7/3/2010 1:21:40 PM >

_____________________________

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Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 1:11:46 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Have you seen "Food, Inc"?


Honestly I actually see what goes on inside this industry, not a documentary, not some reporters version, I know both sides of the equation personally when it comes to meat packers. My dad worked in a packing house for 26 years. My brother, son and a whole host of family members, and yes some of those are now hispanic, work in this industry. 

America has always been about the immigrant getting a fair shot, the legal immigrant.

I'm certainly not going to tell anyone all is well and nothing needs improved, but interestingly enough those that make the most noise on this issue have the least amount of actual experience with it.

But no I haven't seen Food Inc. I've been busy living it.

I think I remember you are from Pittsburgh. I know your a Steeler in any event.

I wouldn't assume I understand all about the steel industry because someone made a doc. While that might spark my interest in a subject, I'd rather talk to those that are actually in the middle of the affair.

I would like to know more about mining and the hiring practives, fairness and safety of that workfield. I wonder if it will be an easier target with Senator Byrd gone?

< Message edited by xBullx -- 7/3/2010 1:16:29 PM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 1:43:32 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Sorry I missed this post Katy...

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Some of the problem can be solved if people would commit to buy their groceries (meat and produce) locally.  It will be time consuming, more expensive  and in some cases inconvenient, but it would help.


I'm ok with that idea, it might be hard for the population centers like Miami, Boston and New York to get all they need locally, but I get your point. I am personally helping Natalie (my wife) start her own produce business so I like your thinking.

quote:



It will take a multi-prong approach to solve the immigration problem, being sensitive to cultural differences and the plight of illegal families.  I do not think the answer is in search/seizure of hispanic-looking people living in border states.  I find the entire AZ situation sad.



I'm not a lawyer, so the law can escape my sense of reason at times, but I don't think the Arizona law is anything different than what was on the federal books. It just offers the right to engage in these laws within the realm of local authorities.

My bet is Arizona doesn't even want the added work load but the feds aren't doing their job and people are dying, being accosted and harrassed by folks that shouldn't even be here.

You know we have been fighting racial, religious and ethnic profiling for a long time in this country, but I have never seen anyone that wasn't doing anything wrong get annoyed by a cop doing his job.

Hell take a cashier at the store, they are supposed to ID anyone using credit cards, if they do I thank them, lots of fraud going on so it's a point of concern.

That being said it seems to me we will go through a period of inconvenience, but if we get our house in order and maintain accountability over our law enforement folk we should, in the end, see the light at the ebnd of the tunnel.

I hope.



_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to KatyLied)
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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 2:19:13 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
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Somebody needs to do something that’s for sure. I think this problem needs leadership.


Skilled Immigrants Leaving the US: Can the U.S. survive without immigrants?

Skilled immigrants such as architects, construction workers, engineers, and doctors are now leaving the US. Thousands of Americans agree that the United States is no longer the land of opportunity and new research shows that these skilled immigrants are returning back to their home land. They may not make the same amount of money but immigrants do not struggle finding jobs, making decent money next to their close families and friends.

Why should we care? Because immigrants are critical to the country's long-term economic health. Despite the fact that they constitute only 12% of the U.S. population, immigrants have started 52% of Silicon Valley's technology companies and contributed to more than 25% of our global patents. They make up 24% of the U.S. science and engineering workforce holding bachelor's degrees and 47% of science and engineering workers who have PhDs.

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/skilled-immigrants-leaving-the-us-can-the-us-survive-without-immigrants/question-272494/?link=samf_prp

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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 2:24:09 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

But if the empolyers aren't doing anything illegal then we sure can't blame an American for working within the system that is in place.


Hiring illegals is illegal

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 2:27:04 PM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
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There is no way you can control your borders...they are too long


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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 2:28:51 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

The funny thing is that the same people that want the meat packer to stop hiring illegals, assuming they did this knowingly (I do know they are legally limited on what they can actually question or ask a perspective employee) hire illegals also want cheap ham and steaks.


I do not know what the hiring practices are where you live, but here the employer is supposed to validate that you are here legally before hiring you. One must submit photo ID and a social security card/green card.... these documents are processed by the federal government to prove you can work here legally... so the idea that employers are precluded from asking about immigration status is just not true...


They can also report someone to INS if they suspect forged documents... just sayin'

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 2:31:29 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain


Somebody needs to do something that’s for sure. I think this problem needs leadership.


Skilled Immigrants Leaving the US: Can the U.S. survive without immigrants?

Skilled immigrants such as architects, construction workers, engineers, and doctors are now leaving the US. Thousands of Americans agree that the United States is no longer the land of opportunity and new research shows that these skilled immigrants are returning back to their home land. They may not make the same amount of money but immigrants do not struggle finding jobs, making decent money next to their close families and friends.

Why should we care? Because immigrants are critical to the country's long-term economic health. Despite the fact that they constitute only 12% of the U.S. population, immigrants have started 52% of Silicon Valley's technology companies and contributed to more than 25% of our global patents. They make up 24% of the U.S. science and engineering workforce holding bachelor's degrees and 47% of science and engineering workers who have PhDs.

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/skilled-immigrants-leaving-the-us-can-the-us-survive-without-immigrants/question-272494/?link=samf_prp



I would personally be happy if the USA became the same type of economy as we see in Europe.... perhaps some other country, or the EU could then support us militarily, etc, so that my grandkids wouldn't be paying to "protect" everyone else's ass.... but I am somewhat isolationist

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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