RE: Feminism and submission

RE: Feminism and submission (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:15:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine FR What about the woman who chooses to fuck the boss for her own gain, thereby perpetuating the cycle? Is she a feminist too? I think women making their own choices is a feminist position, just like men can make fucked up stupid decisions, so can women... Being a feminist does not make you moral, a good decision maker, nor a good person... Just like being a democrat, a republican, a christian, an atheist doesn't magically imbue you with ethical super powers... Perhaps if you thought about it that way what LL posted might make more sense to you

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:20:16 PM)
I agree with your first statements JO but, I really don't see how a woman who is deliberately undermining the power structure by enabling and encouraging sexual harassment of women can in any way be called a feminist. But maybe I'm just too busy licking my balls.

juliaoceania -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:25:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine I agree with your first statements JO but, I really don't see how a woman who is deliberately undermining the power structure by enabling and encouraging sexual harassment of women can in any way be called a feminist. But maybe I'm just too busy licking my balls. I don't see how someone can call themselves a Christian and commit a sin, an environmentalist that drives a gas guzzler because they can't afford a new car, a gay republican.... I cannot understand how all these people do and say things contradictory to their beliefs, but they do.. Here is the thing, maybe those women I knew that were fucking the boss were a little more desperate for the job than i was... and I can't judge that. Perhaps if I was going to be homeless a little cock sucking after work may have seemed more palatable to me...it Wouldn't change my belief that gender should not be a criteria to base pay scale, it wouldn't mean that I wanted to give up my right to vote, and it wouldn't mean that I wanted to give up the right to choose.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:27:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine You are a class act that every woman should aspire to. I've disagreed with you but I don't think I've attacked your character, just your ideas. Don't you have a better argument than that? I do realize that in your imaginary world, all women are just waiting for some strong man to come and rescue them with their big masculine arms. Reality on the other hand shows you that we aren't waiting for you. We are living our lives, day by day with nary a thought of you. You have attacked me several times, in underhanded ways. I'm sure you think you are the only one smart enough to realize it, but surprise, I burned more brain cells in high school than you use on a daily basis. Class act? I am quite the class act, and as for being something women should aspire to, I'll leave that to all the women who have regularly come to me for help over the years and expressed wishing they had my intelligence, quick mind, compassion, strength and ability to always look ahead, not back, and how they were grateful that I was able to help them. You know nothing about me or what I have achieved in live. Nor do I have reason to tell you. But I stand by my statement that telling you to take your head out of your ass is akin to telling a dog to stop licking his balls.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:28:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine I agree with your first statements JO but, I really don't see how a woman who is deliberately undermining the power structure by enabling and encouraging sexual harassment of women can in any way be called a feminist. But maybe I'm just too busy licking my balls. Because you don't truly understand what feminism is, or that someone can be a feminist and still be a dirtbag out for themselves.

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:29:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I don't see how someone can call themselves a Christian and commit a sin, an environmentalist that drives a gas guzzler because they can't afford a new car, a gay republican.... I cannot understand how all these people do and say things contradictory to their beliefs, but they do.. Regardless of whether or not the woman "is a feminist" I'd say a more relevant question is, is the choice she made a feminist choice because she's a woman who made it?

juliaoceania -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:30:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine I agree with your first statements JO but, I really don't see how a woman who is deliberately undermining the power structure by enabling and encouraging sexual harassment of women can in any way be called a feminist. But maybe I'm just too busy licking my balls. Because you don't truly understand what feminism is, or that someone can be a feminist and still be a dirtbag out for themselves. Or desperate enough that whoring themselves out seems like a better option than the alternative

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:30:25 PM)
Every woman on earth who is not born into bondage is a feminist by your self-fulfilling definition!

LafayetteLady -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:31:12 PM)
Yes, julia, I do agree that could be one of the reasons as well. Without knowing them or their stories, we really won't ever know, right?

sexyred1 -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:32:11 PM)
Wow...let's try this again: a. a feminist is someone who believes in equal rights for women. b. as others have clearly stated, having equal rights does not make you smarter or better, just able to choose what you want in all areas of life. c. feminism and submission can be mutually exclusive and can co-exist. You can demand respect every day of your life, command armies and corporations and still like to be treated like a whore in your private moments without having one brain cell or moral fiber destroyed in the process. d. women still are struggling in the workplace despite the fact that it is 2010. e. women can be a supreme court judge or a stripper at Scores and still both are feminists. f. feminists can be sexually harassed. even men can be sexually harassed in the workplace. g. non feminists can be sexually harassed. h. feminists can fuck their boss and still be a feminist i. fucking your boss has ZIP to do with perpetuating a cycle of abuse since both parties have chosen to fuck. Have I missed anything?

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:32:56 PM)
quote: Or desperate enough that whoring themselves out seems like a better option than the alternative AMEN!!!! well saidJulia

juliaoceania -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:34:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Yes, julia, I do agree that could be one of the reasons as well. Without knowing them or their stories, we really won't ever know, right? The post I made about the boss that found a coworker willing to do the hot tub thing. I know for a fact it hurt her. She didn't want to and felt she had no other option. I had another coworker that held her while she literally cried about it... Before the grace-of-whatever-or-nonexistent-higher-power-go I.... I had an extended family to help me if I fell down and skinned my economic knee. She didn't.

laurell3 -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:35:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 Not sure what corporate world you are coming from, but here in NYC it does in fact, run rampant. I have seen many overly qualified, higher performing women not attain the same levels as underqualified men simply because they were not part of the "club". This has nothing to do with sexual harassment; it is far more subtle. So taking action is a bit more difficult to prove. So not an understatement; it is a fact. I see far too many woman that are successful to consider it rampant. I see people with grievances that far too often hide behind sexism as a way to diminish their own culpability. The same holds true with race but to a much lesser extent. If you got the balls you break down those walls. It might be a bit harder which is an injustice, but I have personally seen far too many woman succeed to discount their success as being random or some sort of an aberration. Is there still a glass ceiling...Yes, there is. More and more woman are making it to the top of corporations. More and more women are entering the workplace and are making an impact which cannot be discounted. There is still an discrepancy in income levels but it is becoming less significant. It is difficult for employers to place a ton of resources into women who might at the drop of a hat abandon their workplace in favor of raising a family. You should look at everyone as an individual. When does performing smart business tactics get in the way of the individuals right to climb the ladder? Great question. Tough question. My friends just must be all very exceptional women. No Domi, it is REALLY common. Most women don't do anything about it. I've been sexually harassed on a major scale in the workplace numerous times. I've never sued or filed an administrative claim. I have reported it and demanded it be addressed. In two instances the man was fired immediately after confirmation the third resulted in a public apology and separation of work places, it didn't work and I left that employment and took their business with me. I don't have to get money to have it addressed. I certainly KNOW that suing doesn't necessarily change anything. That isn't to say women cannot be successful. They can, by being good at what they do and making sure the right people notice it, that has nothing to do with gender. In fact it has been my experience that highlighting your gender is a mistake. I have been incredibly successful in my field, it wasn't because of who I fucked or wearing short skirts. It was because I ignored all that and did the job and did it well. But to think success means that sexual harassment and the good old boy system isn't alive and well is sadly mistaken. They are and one has to be even more determined to look beyond it to succeed.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:37:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 Have I missed anything? Fraid so: j. Women who can summarise clearly are hawt. [;)]

juliaoceania -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:38:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I don't see how someone can call themselves a Christian and commit a sin, an environmentalist that drives a gas guzzler because they can't afford a new car, a gay republican.... I cannot understand how all these people do and say things contradictory to their beliefs, but they do.. Regardless of whether or not the woman "is a feminist" I'd say a more relevant question is, is the choice she made a feminist choice because she's a woman who made it? The point is that why are women put in the position to make such choices? This is the "feminist" question... the feminist position looks at the why these choices are made to begin with... I think women should be able to be prostitutes if they like that work. I think they shouldn't be bribed into prostitution... see the difference?

LafayetteLady -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:39:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine Every woman on earth who is not born into bondage is a feminist by your self-fulfilling definition! Let me try this one more time to see if you can get it through the fuzz in your brain. Read slowly so you understand. Every woman who makes her own decisions based on HER needs is utilizing the choices brought about by feminist ideology because being a feminist is not about marching in protest, going to rallies or burning your bra. It is about accepting and utilizing the choices that someone else got for you by doing those things. You will never understand it, and you will continue to try to argue the point. For me it is like running a race against a guy with no legs, without the slightest bit of sport or challenge. Is that a disparaging remark towards your character? Yep. But trust me, I took the high road, because there were so many other worth while examples of what I think about the intelligence you believe yourself to have.

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:43:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine Every woman on earth who is not born into bondage is a feminist by your self-fulfilling definition! Let me try this one more time to see if you can get it through the fuzz in your brain. Read slowly so you understand. Every woman who makes her own decisions based on HER needs is utilizing the choices brought about by feminist ideology because being a feminist is not about marching in protest, going to rallies or burning your bra. It is about accepting and utilizing the choices that someone else got for you by doing those things. You will never understand it, and you will continue to try to argue the point. For me it is like running a race against a guy with no legs, without the slightest bit of sport or challenge. Is that a disparaging remark towards your character? Yep. But trust me, I took the high road, because there were so many other worth while examples of what I think about the intelligence you believe yourself to have. Let me try this one more time... You are talking about humans not women. You have abstracted feminism out to incorporate everyone... Its completely meaningless then. Please do keep the insults coming.

sexyred1 -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:43:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 Have I missed anything? Fraid so: j. Women who can summarise clearly are hawt. [;)] awwwww....back at you. [;)]

sexyred1 -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:46:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine Every woman on earth who is not born into bondage is a feminist by your self-fulfilling definition! Let me try this one more time to see if you can get it through the fuzz in your brain. Read slowly so you understand. Every woman who makes her own decisions based on HER needs is utilizing the choices brought about by feminist ideology because being a feminist is not about marching in protest, going to rallies or burning your bra. It is about accepting and utilizing the choices that someone else got for you by doing those things. You will never understand it, and you will continue to try to argue the point. For me it is like running a race against a guy with no legs, without the slightest bit of sport or challenge. Is that a disparaging remark towards your character? Yep. But trust me, I took the high road, because there were so many other worth while examples of what I think about the intelligence you believe yourself to have. Let me try this one more time... You are talking about humans not women. You have abstracted feminism out to incorporate everyone... Its completely meaningless then. Please do keep the insults coming. Dude. Lafayette Lady is clearly the better debater here with you and does not need my help. But really now, you are simply arguing just to argue with comments like this. The basis of everything being discussed is human behavior. Feminism can be ascribed to men as well, so your words are just silly now.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/6/2010 5:48:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine Let me try this one more time... You are talking about humans not women. You have abstracted feminism out to incorporate everyone... Its completely meaningless then. Please do keep the insults coming. No, I haven't because women didn't always have that right to choose for themselves. At no point did I mention MEN's decisions and unless I missed the memo they are part of everyone. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that feminism is only about one particular thing, a thing which you don't actually agree with anyway based on your earlier comments about us really just waiting for the big strong man to come along and save us from ourselves. When will you admit, after more than 2 dozen women telling you that you are clueless about what feminism is that you don't know what you are talking about? Perhaps you are waiting for some man to come along and confirm it for you?

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