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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 1:05:41 PM   
dreamerdreaming


Posts: 2839
Status: offline 		Fast reply:

There have been other threads on this, and I don't really get why anyone would have difficulty with it since it seems so obvious to me:

Feminism is all about both genders having equal rights by law, and equal opportunity in the pursuit of happiness, fulfillment and self-actualization (aka self-realization). Its about the chance to live to your full potential, be who you are, and enjoy doing it, and its about all of that not being gender specific: neither being hindered or given unfair advantage by virtue of gender. How exactly is having a certain D/s orientation incompatible with that ideal???????

If you want to be who you are, and you take steps to actually live that way, and that way happens to be the life of a submissive or slave, - or anything else: that is exactly what feminism is about! Its about everybody's equal right to live the life they choose, the life they want, to be who they want to be, do what they want to do, and have the chance for a happy, fulfilled, pleasurable, meaningful existence!

Why is that so hard for some people to understand?! Its so basic!



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Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 1:10:58 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline 		I don't see feminism and submission being inherently in conflict. I see my situation/values/beliefs/prejudices/stuff I need to figure out to be in conflict. Which is why I'm asking for help, and not telling people they're being anti-feminist when they submit.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 1:22:07 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB


Maybe you're right about my choice of people to pursue this with, but my Dom insists that he's a feminist. It seems that a lot of Doms do around here



That's because unlike me, they don't have the balls to state what they really think of women.  I know where women belong and I have no problem putting them into that place.

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 1:27:43 PM   
dreamerdreaming


Posts: 2839
Status: offline 		Okay, sorry for the rant but your OP wasn't very specific. If its yummy and fulfilling for you to serve a man in "degrading, objectifying" ways, then I don't see why there should be a conflict. Its yummy and fulfilling for you- so ENJOY!

Off the top of my head: one thing that might help you is to think of your kink in terms of "humiliation", rather than degradation. I humiliate my slave in order to lift him up- not to put him down. Its a yummy, delicious, good thing- not bad at all, since it is only done for our mutual, white-hot, exquisite pleasure and fulfillment.

So maybe it would help you to think of it like that. Humiliation and degradation are two different things. If him putting you down lifts you up, then its not true degradation. Its just sweet, hot, delicious humiliation! ENJOY!



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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 1:33:27 PM   
jujubeeMB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
Maybe you're right about my choice of people to pursue this with, but my Dom insists that he's a feminist. It seems that a lot of Doms do around here


That's because unlike me, they don't have the balls to state what they really think of women.  I know where women belong and I have no problem putting them into that place.



You're not helping

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 1:42:01 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have only read a few comments, so if I am repetitive I do not intend to be....

I am an ultra lefty politically speaking. I only involve myself with men that are also. I have only had D/s relationships with men that consider themselves to be feminists. It is all about consent, the ability to consent to being in these sorts of relationships that reconciles my belief in the equality of the sexes with my submissive side. I do not submit to just any man, only to men that I respect on every level, and that includes respecting their beliefs about such matters on female empowerment

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(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 1:48:34 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh
Nope, I wasn't thinking a manly princess.  I think you are projecting when you assume that she wants to surrender though.


I certainly have nothing to project.  My information comes from social science, archetypal mythology and talking to women about this stuff.



Okay... here is where I have to say... what is considered feminine and masculine is not a cultural universal, archetypes rarely hold up universally.... just so you know..

And as far as dominant/masculine submissive/feminine paradigm... um, nope, don't buy that. Women and men in this culture may exercise power and dominance in differing ways, but it is not a gendered sort of thing...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 1:50:56 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB


Maybe you're right about my choice of people to pursue this with, but my Dom insists that he's a feminist. It seems that a lot of Doms do around here



That's because unlike me, they don't have the balls to state what they really think of women.  I know where women belong and I have no problem putting them into that place.



I'm going to fire a guy tomorrow morning Michael and when I do, I am going to be thinking of this as I "put him in his place." It's fucking good to be the boss. Thanks for reminding me why.

Oh and I am going to make him get me a cup of coffee first.



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(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 1:54:26 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron
It has been my experience that malesubs ask for this type of play AND to be feminized far more often than femdoms request that type of submission.


I'll take your word for that...I really don't know enough femdoms to be able to analyze.

The whole strap on penis thing is pretty interesting. Feminization not so much, because I've heard of women getting their head shaved for humiliation purposes, which gives the same sort of neutering, but still it does seem that sort of thing is mostly for F/m relationships.

I'm totally going to post a new thread about this, I'm curious.

ETA - Akasha's post on this thread was more or less what I was getting at - http://www.collarchat.com/m_3260200/mpage_3/tm.htm

And actually your own words in that thread said you liked it because it's a "powertrip" - not to get too off topic but what about having a strap-on penis is a power trip if not the 'penis' part?


In my opinion, it's far less to do about the "penis" part as it is the power part. I was "fake ass fucking" men long before I had a dildo attached to a harness that actually penetrated him.   The penis, as a symbol, is far more powerful to the *men* that submit to it than it is to me; It's just another tool in the arsenal, it feels good to use and it's fun.  It's also fun dry-humping a man's ass with no strap on either. The position, the meaning, the sensation.

My female chihuahua often gets on top of my male labrador's head and dry humps him as an act of dominance, at least that's what I have read.  It's very funny to watch.  And she doesn't have a penis. 

Akasha


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(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 1:57:46 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

I have defined the problem with rigid feminist thought and the part it plays in creating the sort of conflict expressed in the OP.


Which wave of feminism are you talking about here?

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 2:09:02 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

My female chihuahua often gets on top of my male labrador's head and dry humps him as an act of dominance, at least that's what I have read.  It's very funny to watch.  And she doesn't have a penis. 

Akasha



Yes, it is your chihuahua exhibiting dominance over your lab, but don't leave us hanging....how does the lab react? I mean I assume she is going for his head because that is the only thing small enough for her to mount, but does he just lay there and let her go at it to her heart's content or what?

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 2:10:11 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB


Maybe you're right about my choice of people to pursue this with, but my Dom insists that he's a feminist. It seems that a lot of Doms do around here



That's because unlike me, they don't have the balls to state what they really think of women.  I know where women belong and I have no problem putting them into that place.



I'm going to fire a guy tomorrow morning Michael and when I do, I am going to be thinking of this as I "put him in his place." It's fucking good to be the boss. Thanks for reminding me why.

Oh and I am going to make him get me a cup of coffee first.




Yep you know your place alright, Aynne *smooch* Any chance of video?

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(in reply to Aynne88)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 2:13:48 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


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From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

I know where women belong and I have no problem putting them into that place.


Where is that Michael....

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 2:15:29 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael



That's because unlike me, they don't have the balls to state what they really think of women.  I know where women belong and I have no problem putting them into that place.



Just fyi - I'm totally happy having the balls to say that people should be valued for what they bring to the party and not their gender.

I'm also totally happy having the balls to say that you'd have to be a real, real jackass to say something like "I know where women belong and I have no problem putting them into that place" without doing so with a deep sense of irony.


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 2:18:46 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline 		ml? I....I think I lust you

_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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Member: Subbie Mafia
Member: Hibbie's Hotties

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 2:19:08 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

My female chihuahua often gets on top of my male labrador's head and dry humps him as an act of dominance, at least that's what I have read.  It's very funny to watch.  And she doesn't have a penis. 

Akasha



Yes, it is your chihuahua exhibiting dominance over your lab, but don't leave us hanging....how does the lab react? I mean I assume she is going for his head because that is the only thing small enough for her to mount, but does he just lay there and let her go at it to her heart's content or what?


The Lab just sits there and acts like he doesn't notice.  I think she does it on his head because it's the only place she can fully straddle on his whole body because of the size difference between them.

Akasha


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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 2:19:53 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Yeah, too damn bad he lives in London

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 2:20:48 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

General reply for the OP.....

You must have read de Beauvior...based on feminism being an idea that you hold dear.....The Second Sex arguably the most significant feminist text of the twentieth century.

The core of her argument draws on Hegel's dialectic of the Master and the Slave. Put simply....the argument is that people come to see themselves as autonomous agents by dominating other people....so for de Beauvoir in a world where women are denied freedom that women is defined and differentiated with reference to man and not he with reference to her; she is the incidental as opposed to the essential. And the conclusion she arrived at was that some women do not want freedom because there are certain advantages associated with the denial of freedom; they prefer the security of a life defined by the man.

In sum: de Beauvoir would not agree that the freedom to choose a life with a man who is the dominant partner.....is in tune with feminism.


kerrrrrr-ching!

This one.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 2:21:59 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

ml? I....I think I lust you


Sheesh,,, we give you the vote and see what you do with it???

;-)

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 2:23:14 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

ml? I....I think I lust you


Sheesh,,, we give you the vote and see what you do with it???

;-)


GAVE us the vote, huh? *thinks* I still lust you ml

_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

Team Troll Trollop
Member: Cocksuckers For World Peace
Charter member: Lance's Fag Hags
Member: Subbie Mafia
Member: Hibbie's Hotties

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Profile   Post #: 160
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