RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/7/2010 3:10:04 PM)

quote:

I had to go back and read my other posts to see where I mentioned natural order, I didn't remember where I said that. The fact is, I didn't. Natural order may have some scientific validity, but it becomes dreadfully hard to defend it and it creates more difference in an argument than commonality.


In your post #15 you used the phrase "natural design."

quote:

Each gender has it's place within the natural design, we can deny that, we can attempt to disprove it, we can try to fight it, we can even try and fool it, often accomplishing little more than fooling ourselves in the process. But nature cares little about our delusion of self importance; neither men nor women will ever be irrelevant to one another, that is nature's intent and if balance fails so then will the species.


Surely you are not going to use the symantics of a phrase as a defense. If natural design is not the same as natural order than I am perplexed. But i am not going to get into a debate about the meaning of your words when they are so clearly the same.

I will look at the rest of your comments in a bit, Bull.




Elisabella -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/7/2010 3:11:21 PM)

quote:

If natural design is not the same as natural order


Maybe God's a dadaist.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/7/2010 3:15:34 PM)

~fast reply~

No gender is ever going to become "irrelevant". We can POSSIBLY say that after thousands of years, there is an increasing amount of societal balance in terms of educational opportunities, and women's being able to control their own reproduction, chemically or socially. (ie, the female children are not left for the wolves).

I would be pleased if at some point everyone was literate, had food, water, shelter, and employment. We all need to work together for that, according to what we can each do. I would be a lousy merchant marine or cattle rancher. Lots of other folks couldn't run a business to save their souls. The way the world lives and works in changing, and everything is going to be in flux for a long while. This isn't the first time we've had sweeping worldwide changes, it's just more noticeable.




LadyEllen -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/7/2010 3:15:59 PM)

I'm not sure where this idea of men becoming irrelevant has come from.

Almost every man I ever spoke to talked such utter rubbish as to demonstrate irrelevance beyond all reasonable doubt.

Still, I understand they make good pets, once house broken.

E




xBullx -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/7/2010 3:37:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

In your post #15 you used the phrase "natural design."



Well you could be correct, it might be a case of semantics if I were to actually look up the definitions of the terms.

But personally I draw the difference to be between what nature has actually designed into our DNA versus what some fellow somewhere claims is the order in which that nature "should" be recognized.

I wasn't trying to get into the debate of who is actually "supposed" to be in charge according to "natural order", I don't even aspire to the notion that there is a "natural order". If I was really in the mood for that repetitive, and seemingly never ending debate I would go to another forum.

So if you want to just dismiss my comments as an excercise in semantics, that suits me just fine. Feel free to disregard my comments and move on to the next poster.

Thanks for at least inspiring some interesting conversation.




jlf1961 -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/7/2010 4:02:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'm not sure where this idea of men becoming irrelevant has come from.

Almost every man I ever spoke to talked such utter rubbish as to demonstrate irrelevance beyond all reasonable doubt.

Still, I understand they make good pets, once house broken.

E


But you seem to forget that some of us males cannot and will not be tamed.  Perhaps you are talking about the domesticated variety found in England and some of the more developed European countries.

However, I can assure you that most of the males like me are predatory, uncivilized and totally without most civilized redeeming qualities. 




vincentML -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/7/2010 6:36:29 PM)

quote:

Nature implants mental, physical and survival aspects within our DNA coding, I don't believe I know anyone that argues that. These impulses govern our ability to exist, adapt and survive in an ever-changing world. Even without technology the world would be in a state of fluctuation, perhaps at a slower pace, but it would and will change. Maybe men with their infinity to solve problems by whippin’ someone’s ass, the advent of the nuclear age and the chance to impose absolute destruction have inspired a natural evolution where the more passive nature of women are now bringing life into balance before life ceases to exist.


You have a number of intersting opinions and I would be sore to have you think your remarks went unread. I will just tweak at a few. In the paragraph above you write as if Nature were some force outside of evolution acting upon our DNA coding. I hope you understand that yours is not the Darwinian concept of Evolution by natural selection and that the effects of natural selection work best on an isolated gene pool. Our species is everywhere so I am not sure if biological evolution is still in process. Perhaps another reader will give me their opinion on that issue.

The article I presented talks about the impact of post-industrial economic change on groups that lack the skills to meet the new environment. So, the issue is about cultural change. There are humans still in nature so to speak and depend upon strength and stamina to survive. This article, however, refers to the impact upon men in civilization. The inherited traits of strength and stamina are no longer an advantage to them. There will always be jobs that utilize those traits but they will be on the lower end of the pay scale, and that's the rub.

quote:

I don't believe that intellectually one gender of our species has the advantage over the other, on the whole. No one is always the smartest, the strongest or the best at something unless nature sees fit to design us as such. But generally there are no absolutes in life. Though it is my opinion that nature tends to code males as group leaders, concurrently it tends to code females with the capacity to be happy in a supporting role. Is that a natural order, no it's a natural inclination. Ever hear the sayings "too many Cooks spoil the broth", "too many Chiefs and not enough Indians", I think nature has heard both.


What you say may have been true during the hunter/gatherer stages of our evolution but what you miss here is the effects of the long period of socialization that began with agriculture. Women may have been genetically predisposed to be "happy in a supporting role" but it is just as likely that the role was imposed upon them and reinforced by thousands of years of socialization. Really, I don't know of anythng to support the notion that women are natural born followers except that strength and stamina were an awesome advantage in warrior cultures.




Nineveh -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/7/2010 6:40:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh

Men have been in charge for a few thousand years.  As far as we can tell prior to that society was largely matriarchal.  If there is a state of nature it is women in charge.

That's highly debatable. There's no evidence for a matriachal utopia before the politheistic "pick a daddy in the sky" religions (and the three big antiflesh desert cults those led to) took hold at all. At best you're talking about interpretations anthropologists with a feminist (or in a couple of cases, femdom) agenda have applied to the Willendorf venus, and for all anybody actually knows, that was neolithic porno rather than physical proof of a mother goddess religion. Hasn't Graves been comprehensively debunked for a long time now?


I certainly wouldn't call it a utopia, however there is pretty conclusive evidence than property inheritance and familial descent (IE who you got your name from) was pretty exclusively traced from the mother.   If women are the ones that can own property and pass it to their children, and also the ones that family descent is traced from that is a pretty clear societal and legal bias toward women.




vincentML -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/7/2010 6:45:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

~fast reply~

No gender is ever going to become "irrelevant". We can POSSIBLY say that after thousands of years, there is an increasing amount of societal balance in terms of educational opportunities, and women's being able to control their own reproduction, chemically or socially. (ie, the female children are not left for the wolves).

I would be pleased if at some point everyone was literate, had food, water, shelter, and employment. We all need to work together for that, according to what we can each do. I would be a lousy merchant marine or cattle rancher. Lots of other folks couldn't run a business to save their souls. The way the world lives and works in changing, and everything is going to be in flux for a long while. This isn't the first time we've had sweeping worldwide changes, it's just more noticeable.


I don't see a lot to disagree with in your comments. Of course, I used the word "Irrelevant" as hyperbole to attract readers. However, the point of the research is that the type of jobs dependent upon testosterone are gravitating to the lower end of the pay scale and that men are not attending colleges in sufficient quantities to encourage the belief they will be as successful as women in the post-industrial, service oriented economy that we are developing in the West.




vincentML -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/7/2010 6:47:50 PM)

quote:

So if you want to just dismiss my comments as an excercise in semantics, that suits me just fine. Feel free to disregard my comments and move on to the next poster.


Bull, I don't always succeed but I try real hard not to be impolite. It was suppertime when I wrote earlier [:D]




wildchild2sides -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/9/2010 3:17:19 PM)

Many women are predatory, uncivilized and without redeeming qualities. Moreover, I beg to differ that women are passive and lack stamina and endurance. Sometimes women decide which battles are important to fight and which ones are trivial, but even SUBMISSIVE women are not passive for the most part. 




Elisabella -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/9/2010 3:25:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wildchild2sides

Many women are predatory, uncivilized and without redeeming qualities.


ohai thar

[sm=champ.gif]




vincentML -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/9/2010 3:50:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wildchild2sides

Many women are predatory, uncivilized and without redeeming qualities.


That may be true but none of that was an issue in my OP.


quote:

Moreover, I beg to differ that women are passive ...


"passive" was not my word. It was suggested by the poster who calls himself Bull. His implication was that such behavior was genetic. My counterpoint is that female "passivity" where found in history is more likely the result of patriarchal socialization.

quote:

.....and lack stamina and endurance. Sometimes women decide which battles are important to fight and which ones are trivial, but even SUBMISSIVE women are not passive for the most part. 


I think you missed the point of the OP: our post-industrial work environment no longer favors jobs that men held traditionally because of their greater physical strength but now favors people with educational credentials. Men are lacking in getting the education required in the new work environment and so more women are moving into positions of power.

Please have a look at the info presented in the OP. Then tell me where we disagree. Thanks





willbeurdaddy -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/9/2010 4:28:14 PM)

Based on the women in politics and the women on this board, god help the planet if men are becoming irrelevant.




WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/9/2010 4:32:29 PM)

It would be nice if it didn't indicate that men were becoming irrelevant, or that women were becoming more relevant. What would be really encouraging, was if the trend indicated that gender bias was becoming irrelevant.




Elisabella -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/9/2010 4:34:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Based on the women in politics and the women on this board, god help the planet if men are becoming irrelevant.



Yeah, seriously. Y'all thought Hitler and Stalin and the Taliban and nukes and biowarfare and shit was bad?

Wait til you see what chicks can do. We'll fuck yo shit up bro. [8D]




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/9/2010 4:34:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

It would be nice if it didn't indicate that men were becoming irrelevant, or that women were becoming more relevant. What would be really encouraging, was if the trend indicated that gender bias was becoming irrelevant.


It has been for quite a while.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/9/2010 4:39:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Based on the women in politics and the women on this board, god help the planet if men are becoming irrelevant.
oh man I am goin to get a beer and make some popcorn!  This is gonna get good!

[sm=popcorn.gif][sm=jerry.gif][sm=rofl.gif]




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/9/2010 4:47:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Based on the women in politics and the women on this board, god help the planet if men are becoming irrelevant.
oh man I am goin to get a beer and make some popcorn!  This is gonna get good!

[sm=popcorn.gif][sm=jerry.gif][sm=rofl.gif]


Elisabella got the point!

If Hunk is concerned about Big Brother watching him, wait till its Big Sister!




Aylee -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/9/2010 5:01:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I don't see the changes as being any big drama. Things are just smoothing out and settling down nearer where they should be. Men will adapt and the women that love them will help them do so.

Any fool that thinks the world is going to turn into one big bunch of pussies with no conflict or war has never worked in an environment dominated by women. There will always be conflict and war..........it will simply be more covert and less messy. There will be less obnoxious chest thumping and bragging, more knife in the back type elimination of the problem if the opposition does not see it their way.



I have seen the argument made that women would be more reluctant to send their children off to war. Might that not, if true, be an inhibition or at least a hesitation to act without further diplomatic efforts?


Ummm. . . you might wiki "Sparta," if you think that is true.  Or you could have a look at US History, especially the 1st world war.[8|]




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