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RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/8/2010 10:03:30 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

FHA appraisal manuals instructed banks to steer clear of areas with "inharmonious racial groups" and recommended that municipalities enact racially restrictive zoning ordinances, as well as covenants prohibiting black owners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining


That's pretty crazy. I seriously can't understand that mindset, but I guess it puts perspective on why people are bothered by the idea of "white flight" if it's linked to the neighborhood being sucked down a racist drainpipe.

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RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/8/2010 10:04:54 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		Yep, it is the reason I get all jumpy about it.....

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RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/8/2010 10:27:39 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Do you think higher fuel prices help or hurt the average consumer? What about the costs of doing business.




Sorry, Sanity, but Oregon's gas is quite a bit cheaper than here in California where you get to pump your own, while panhandlers treat you as a captive audience for their pitch.

Even though I live in California, Portland is the place I think of as "home." The gas rules are not the nanny state, but a peculiar quirk of a state with several of those. The voters keep it the way it is, not the legislature. Given the long season of cold and gray, staying in your car while somebody else pump the gas is a luxury. My wife fell in love with the state the very first time she pulled up to a gas pump there.



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RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/8/2010 11:15:43 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Do you think higher fuel prices help or hurt the average consumer? What about the costs of doing business.




Sorry, Sanity, but Oregon's gas is quite a bit cheaper than here in California where you get to pump your own, while panhandlers treat you as a captive audience for their pitch.

Even though I live in California, Portland is the place I think of as "home." The gas rules are not the nanny state, but a peculiar quirk of a state with several of those. The voters keep it the way it is, not the legislature. Given the long season of cold and gray, staying in your car while somebody else pump the gas is a luxury. My wife fell in love with the state the very first time she pulled up to a gas pump there.




As far as pumping gas goes, Id call NJ and Oregon laws where you CANT pump your own a nanny "state" law. Too minor an issue to worry about tho.

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RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 2:37:22 AM   
Brain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

I've heard this word almost all of my adult life and have never heard a definition. I am sure of course that there is one definition.

Now don't give me a bunch of editorials. Write succinctly what laws...requirements or just what is govt. specifically doing that would create a 'nanny state' and why do you think those you do list, are a feature of the 'nanny state.'

Can't just throw something out there in general, I want specifics on exactly what it is that makes up such a state...and why it does.



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RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 4:09:43 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

Let me type this s-l-o-w-l-y for you so that you may understand that hailing from a state within this country is not like having a nationality... we are all Americans no matter where we live, we become a citizen of whatever state we move to when we change our address.... you do understand this, right? I mean, it is not a complicated idea, try harder to grasp it.


Posted right after you posted this one....

quote:

quote:

Try to address what I posted, instead of the voices in your head julia. And where do you suppose all the "white flight fucktards" in Idaho are from?

Yeah - they're Californians.



No... they're Idahoans



So which is it?


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RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 4:34:30 AM   
PeanutTigerinBox


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The nanny state is basically any state that does something you don't like, particularly if it infringes on something you can't do anymore through legislation. It's a term particularly beloved of the British red tops, I've noticed, who kicked up a massive shitfit over health and safety regulations when those were introduced. I think the derivation is that any government which tries to intefere with something that's working perfectly well for any member of the elite already is taking an authoritarian role and talking to the successful small businessman/armed rapist/Oil company/other the way a Victorian governess would treat her charges. "Nanny" as in Mary Poppins, dig?



that's pretty well said to my view....let me compare it to the way how I grew up...in Germany...compared to living over here in the UK...I don't really put stuff behind it such as (due to different insurance system etc...I keep it blunt, as I think it is easier to understand).

back home i could go to any GP, I could go to 10 different ones if I wanted to and could even take a 5 hour drive to one I wanted to see if I would want to...
not over here in the UK...I came here the first time in 2004 and was ridicoulusly told from a few GP's that I would have to go the one where my employers are (I worked as a nanny at that time) ...it took me a while to find one who didn't come with that crap (as after all, I doubted that shop workers would also have to go to the GP where their boss was ). However, once I had finally registered with one I went back to Germany, so wasn't necessary...

now...I came back half a year later, found an ok-ish GP and moved later again within the UK where then my first GP choice was not possible...as I am living at the wrong side of the road

So fine, I chose another one where I then was told that I "just" live within their area...so they accepted me, but only "just."

==> so when you are used to be able to just go to any GP and now you are told to go to one in your area then it limits your choice and autonomy in deciding who is judging on your health...not something I like over here (that being said I am lucky to have the best GP I have ever had right now).




Another example is that within my studies I had no influence whatsoever on my placement.

Back home when you study social science as I did you have to organise your placement yourself, nobody does it for you. You either get your arse up and get one or you won't have one. A big plus on that one is that you can't complain about the placement you end up with as such, as after all you chose it....

Now...again, that doesn't work like that over here.
the uni organises the placements and you aren't supposed to decline it. If you do you reach the bottom list of their importance of giving you a placement and might end up starting your placement very late indeed...IF they even manage to find one for you...I was actually lied into my first placement as my tutor had asked me if I would be willing to work in a hospice...no problem for me...well, once I went there for the interview I realised it isn't a hospice...it was a nursing home... But by then I was there for the interview and was supposed to take it...leaving me rather pissed off during the duration of that placement as I felt like wasting my time as with my work experience that environment was far from new to me



Another example is the policy over here in regards to cleaning the footpaths at winter time...

Back home we have to clear the footpath in front of your flat/house in winter times up to a certain time in the morning (don't know what the exact time is but we cleared it usually before 7am). If you don't do it and someone slipps out and gets hurt you are in charge as a person living there where it happened...Over here...forget it.

I was told from several people that here the policy is the other way around. if you DO clear it and someone slipps out then you are legally in charge, if you just leave the snow and someone slipps out and get injured then the government is in charge about it...so people do it and it feels to me again a la "dont give the people too much responsibility or ability that they would be able to actually do it!"

therefore whereas back home I can't remember one single time where I slipped out on a footpath in my 26 years over there...overe here it happened 4 times alone from february 09 to february 10.

These are 3 examples which jumped straight into my mind for now...






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RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 6:01:08 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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California gas is more expensive for other reasons. Imagine how much more California gas stations would have to charge if they were forced to keep enough extra people on staff to pump everyones gas! But how would your wife feel about being stranded in the middle of nowhere throughout the night? In Idaho you can fuel up your vehicle any time, night or day in even the smallest towns by swiping your card. Like Idaho, Oregon has a lot of very rural area, so in many parts of Oregon if you run out of gas late at night you're stuck waiting until an attendant arrives in the morning.

Thats your nanny looking out for you!

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


Sorry, Sanity, but Oregon's gas is quite a bit cheaper than here in California where you get to pump your own, while panhandlers treat you as a captive audience for their pitch.

Even though I live in California, Portland is the place I think of as "home." The gas rules are not the nanny state, but a peculiar quirk of a state with several of those. The voters keep it the way it is, not the legislature. Given the long season of cold and gray, staying in your car while somebody else pump the gas is a luxury. My wife fell in love with the state the very first time she pulled up to a gas pump there.




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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 6:08:08 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
I caught that too, and just laughed. Thats alright though, she may be an airhead but shes a fun airhead...


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

Let me type this s-l-o-w-l-y for you so that you may understand that hailing from a state within this country is not like having a nationality... we are all Americans no matter where we live, we become a citizen of whatever state we move to when we change our address.... you do understand this, right? I mean, it is not a complicated idea, try harder to grasp it.


Posted right after you posted this one....

quote:

quote:

Try to address what I posted, instead of the voices in your head julia. And where do you suppose all the "white flight fucktards" in Idaho are from?

Yeah - they're Californians.



No... they're Idahoans



So which is it?



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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 6:14:45 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		More from your link:

"Although in the United States informal discrimination and segregation have always existed, the practice called "redlining" began with the National Housing Act of 1934, which established the Federal Housing Administration (FHA).[8] The federal government contributed to the early decay of inner city neighborhoods by withholding mortgage capital and making it difficult for these neighborhoods to attract and retain families able to purchase homes.[9] In 1935, the Federal Home Loan Bank Board (FHLBB) asked Home Owners' Loan Corporation (HOLC) to look at 239 cities and create "residential security maps" to indicate the level of security for real-estate investments in each surveyed city. "

So "redlining" was started by and is a product of our beloved nanny govt., much like the current Fannie / Freddie / ACORN instigated crisis where lenders were coerced to make loan to people who couldn't possibly pay them back.

Our government is always here to help because it loves us soooooooooooooo much.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

FHA appraisal manuals instructed banks to steer clear of areas with "inharmonious racial groups" and recommended that municipalities enact racially restrictive zoning ordinances, as well as covenants prohibiting black owners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining


That's pretty crazy. I seriously can't understand that mindset, but I guess it puts perspective on why people are bothered by the idea of "white flight" if it's linked to the neighborhood being sucked down a racist drainpipe.


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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 6:22:33 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		I think of America as a concept, as opposed to a place.  A concept under which individual initiative is unfettered and encouraged.  And rewarded.

Similarly, a nanny state is not so much an actuality as much as a concept.  A place where individual initiative is discouraged, and the comfort and safety of the individuals - their welfare - is the responsibility of the state and not the individuals.

Unfortunately, neither concept works on its own.  Unfettered individual initiative has resulted in horrible fraud in the case of the banks, showing what happens when regulation is absent.  And the nanny state overlooks the fact that individual initiative is the engine that creates and drives private enterprise, which feeds people and funds the government.


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RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 6:34:51 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

But they do not want to pay for it, and they do not want anyone telling them not to do stupid shit like ride around on a motorcycle without a helmet even though it costs taxpayers to scrape their brains up off the road, put them back into their heads, and pay someone to feed them for the rest of their lives


Where exactly do you draw the line at telling people "not to do stupid shit" and who gets to determine what the "stupid shit" is?

Every action that anyone takes can be turned into a cost-to-society argument.

I'm sure you do things that can be argued are a cost to society.  Do you want those things legislated against for your own good?



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RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 6:52:27 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

CA was just pissed because AZ was stirring up shit about illegals. How much money do you think CA make each year by exploiting all those people? They don't want laws enforced. That would crash your economy.



So California is making money exploiting illegals but Arizona is losing money by being exploited by illegals?

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 7:01:39 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Probably whoever is paying our medical bills will feel they have the right to dictate to us where that line is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Where exactly do you draw the line at telling people "not to do stupid shit" and who gets to determine what the "stupid shit" is?

Every action that anyone takes can be turned into a cost-to-society argument.

I'm sure you do things that can be argued are a cost to society.  Do you want those things legislated against for your own good?





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RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 7:02:24 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

But they do not want to pay for it, and they do not want anyone telling them not to do stupid shit like ride around on a motorcycle without a helmet even though it costs taxpayers to scrape their brains up off the road, put them back into their heads, and pay someone to feed them for the rest of their lives


Where exactly do you draw the line at telling people "not to do stupid shit" and who gets to determine what the "stupid shit" is?

Every action that anyone takes can be turned into a cost-to-society argument.

I'm sure you do things that can be argued are a cost to society.  Do you want those things legislated against for your own good?





I think we draw the line in good places. I approve of helmet laws. I approve of seat belt laws. I think that if you don't want to take care with your own body, well then we shouldn't have to pay the price..

I will use Yosemite as another example. If you do stupid shit up there and get injured, costing taxpayers money to fish your ass out of the wild, we have the option to charge you for the search and rescue.

I am just saying, if people want to behave in a reckless manner, then they shouldn't expect us to bail their ass out.

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RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 7:04:47 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I think of America as a concept, as opposed to a place.  A concept under which individual initiative is unfettered and encouraged.  And rewarded.

Similarly, a nanny state is not so much an actuality as much as a concept.  A place where individual initiative is discouraged, and the comfort and safety of the individuals - their welfare - is the responsibility of the state and not the individuals.

Unfortunately, neither concept works on its own.  Unfettered individual initiative has resulted in horrible fraud in the case of the banks, showing what happens when regulation is absent.  And the nanny state overlooks the fact that individual initiative is the engine that creates and drives private enterprise, which feeds people and funds the government.



The problem I have with your post DS is that you juxstapose two concepts that do not exist and suggest by that juxtaposition that America is one or the other. America has never been a place where individual initiative has been unfettered nor where it has been discouraged. There may have been instances of each throughout our history for singular reasons but neither of your definitions applies to America with a broad brush.

Yes, there are laws which might fetter individual initiative but possibly for good reason. So, the Libertarian picks at one or two and makes a crusade of it. America has never as a general definition "overlooked the fact that individual initiative is the engine that blah, blah." It is a strawman argument IMO much beloved by the smaller government crowd until the smaller government they desire deprives them of benefits they cherish.

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RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 7:09:21 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Charging people for search and rescue isn't really nanny government, thats forcing people to take responsibility for their own actions (which is going the opposite direction from nannyism). 

Telling people they can't go into the wild, or climb mountains, or go kayaking on wild rivers would be nanny government. 

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RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 7:09:27 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

So "redlining" was started by and is a product of our beloved nanny govt., much like the current Fannie / Freddie / ACORN instigated crisis where lenders were coerced to make loan to people who couldn't possibly pay them back.


ACORN? Holy shit, they didn't even exist back then... what the fuck are you smoking, dude?

As for the rest, yes, corporations have always ran our government from behind the scene, and they were in on redlining. I wouldn't exactly call this a "socialist" agenda....

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 7:12:07 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

Let me type this s-l-o-w-l-y for you so that you may understand that hailing from a state within this country is not like having a nationality... we are all Americans no matter where we live, we become a citizen of whatever state we move to when we change our address.... you do understand this, right? I mean, it is not a complicated idea, try harder to grasp it.


Posted right after you posted this one....

quote:

quote:

Try to address what I posted, instead of the voices in your head julia. And where do you suppose all the "white flight fucktards" in Idaho are from?

Yeah - they're Californians.



No... they're Idahoans



So which is it?



You quoted that incorrectly...



_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: What is the 'nanny state' ? - 7/9/2010 7:21:18 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Re-read julia, paying special attention to the word "current" then look the meaning of "current" up (as regards timelines) if you don't understand its definition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

So "redlining" was started by and is a product of our beloved nanny govt., much like the current Fannie / Freddie / ACORN instigated crisis where lenders were coerced to make loan to people who couldn't possibly pay them back.


ACORN? Holy shit, they didn't even exist back then... what the fuck are you smoking, dude?

As for the rest, yes, corporations have always ran our government from behind the scene, and they were in on redlining. I wouldn't exactly call this a "socialist" agenda....


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