quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

FACT CHECK Or do you require an affidavit from RR as well? Sheesh! You guys think we don't do dirty shit. You are soooo wrong on this one, Sanity.

Howard Teicher served on the National Security Council as director of Political-Military Affairs. He accompanied Rumsfeld to Baghdad in 1983.[16] According to his 1995 affidavit and separate interviews with former Reagan and Bush administration officials, the Central Intelligence Agency secretly directed armaments and hi-tech components to Iraq through false fronts and friendly third parties such as Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Kuwait, and they quietly encouraged rogue arms dealers and other private military companies to do the same:

[T]he United States actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing U.S. military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure that Iraq had the military weaponry required. The United States also provided strategic operational advice to the Iraqis to better use their assets in combat... The CIA, including both CIA Director Casey and Deputy Director Gates, knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to Iraq. My notes, memoranda and other documents in my NSC files show or tend to show that the CIA knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, munitions and vehicles to Iraq.[17]

Footnote [17] is a statement from Teicher to the US District Court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran-Iraq_war

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Your standard of proof is one persons allegations? Pfft...

This must mean you also believe in Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, every UFO story ever told, and all the JFK and 911 conspiracy theories too... 

And the thing about scientists sharing samples of viruses, etc, is that thats what scientists do. How would countries defend against biological weapons without samples to use in testing?

Beside that back in the 1980's Iran was the bully on the block, their goal was to overthrow every Muslim government in the Middle East, unite all of Islam under a ruthless religious dictatorship  and eventually extend their Jihad to a global level. Stopping Iran was necessary, and circumstances made Iraq the perfect tool to use towards that end.

But there is absolutely no evidence proving your or vince's wild eyed claims that the United States aided or abetted Saddams development or use of chemical or biological weaponry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


Did the United States Supply Saddam with Biological Weapons


•National Security Decision Directive (NSDD) 139 of April 5, 1984, "Measures to Improve U.S. Posture and Readiness to Respond to Developments in the Iran-Iraq War," focusing again on increased access for U.S. military forces in the Persian Gulf and enhanced intelligence-gathering capabilities. The directive calls for "unambiguous" condemnation of chemical weapons use, without naming Iraq, but places "equal stress" on protecting Iraq from Iran's "ruthless and inhumane tactics." The directive orders preparation of "a plan of action designed to avert an Iraqi collapse."

•U.S. and Iraqi consultations about Iran's 1984 draft resolution seeking United Nations Security Council condemnation of Iraq's chemical weapons use. Iraq conveyed several requests to the U.S. about the resolution, including its preference for a lower-level response and one that did not name any country in connection with chemical warfare; the final result complied with Iraq's requests.

•The 1984 public U.S. condemnation of chemical weapons use in the Iran-Iraq war, which said, referring to the Ayatollah Khomeini's refusal to agree to end hostilities until Saddam Hussein was ejected from power, "The United States finds the present Iranian regime's intransigent refusal to deviate from its avowed objective of eliminating the legitimate government of neighboring Iraq to be inconsistent with the accepted norms of behavior among nations and the moral and religious basis which it claims."


...... A letter written in 1995 by former CDC Director David Satcher to former Senator Donald W. Riegle, Jr., points out that the U.S. Government provided nearly two dozen viral and bacterial samples to Iraqi scientists in 1985--samples that included the plague, botulism, and anthrax, among other deadly diseases.

According to the letter from Dr. Satcher to former Senator Donald Riegle, many of the materials were hand carried by an Iraqi scientist to Iraq after he had spent 3 months training in the CDC laboratory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


The burden of proof belongs to those telling the whopper, which in this case is you and vince.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

If Sanity can't dismiss proof with a handwave or shift the goalposts out of reach he'll simply resort to bias or try the unfounded assertion the source is biased.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


What proof? There is no proof. If you really think one person saying something is so is evidence of anything then I have a bridge to sell you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

If Sanity can't dismiss proof with a handwave or shift the goalposts out of reach he'll simply resort to bias or try the unfounded assertion the source is biased.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


The burden of proof belongs to those telling the whopper, which in this case is you and vince.

Which I've given you and you refuse to accept but also refuse to disprove it.

Trying to have a discussion with you is like talking to a young child. 

You think you can dismiss anything that you do not agree with without providing any proof to the contrary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


When called on it you can't prove the lies and leftist propaganda you've been spoon fed half your life so out of embarrassment and rage you resort to this typical far left tactic of character assassination thinking its just as good as a factual cerebral debate.

Day in and day out, thread after thread, post after post.

YAWN... just another day.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I did.

You didn't.

And you are rapidly becoming someone not worth engaging in debate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

When called on it you can't prove the lies and leftist propaganda you've been spoon fed half your life so out of embarrassment and rage you resort to this typical far left tactic of character assassination thinking its just as good as a factual cerebral debate.

Day in and day out, thread after thread, post after post.

YAWN... just another day.

I did.

You didn't.

And you are rapidly becoming someone not worth engaging in debate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
[...]
My impression is that the United States has been engaged in an economic imperialist and interventionist policy since the end of the Second World War, not always without provocation however.
[...]
The United States has been in an expansionist mode since land surveyors first glimpsed the west side of the Appalachian Mountains. The question now is: “Wither Empire?”

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Vincent, yeah, look at S. Korea, we've had a substantial Troop presence there for close to 60 years now!
When are they (we) going to bring those Troops home? And there's no reason to have Troops in 135 countries!
That's tremendously expensive!
The U.S. Taxpayer is footing the bill for the protection of foreign countries and has been for a long time! How are we supposed to be "competitive" with a "nut" like that? The answer is, we can't.
NATO should have been dissolved right after the old Soviet Union collapsed. We're getting the same thing there that we're getting with the "U.N.", tens of thousands of* highly paid* buearocrats sitting in offices sharpening pencils and comming up with new "titles" for themselves! "The assistant (low) commissioner of blankety blank resources, minerals, logistics, manpower, and land forces (but not naval forces) to the (medium) (higher) commissioner and liason to the (highest) blankety blank commissioner (excluding the lesser Antilles). And there's ((tens of thousands of them)) like that! There's probably 50-60 buearocrats for every (one) soldier.
That's the shit we're paying for! Does anyone know how much being in NATO costs the U.S. each year?
Yahoo did an article about a month ago about the 1,700 people in the Dept of Transportation who were making "in excess of $170 k per year."
And people say there's no room for cuts in the federal govt? Does anyone even (know) how many people are in the State Dept? (They) have people in 195 or so countries that we don't need to be doing.
And when you ask congressmen and senators why we still have Troops in S. Korea they say we have "interests" there. Oh really? I don't know one person who has any "interests" in S. Korea. But now we hear that Bush 3 wants to have "free trade" with S. Korea and,....."Colombia."
More jobs going overseas for sure! And a lot more drugs comming into the U.S. from Colombia!
And yes, I think you're right, the U.S. has been involved in interventionist policies and that needs to stop.
And we have interventionists on the left and on the right. One group wants to kill 'em the other group wants to feed 'em! I don't want to do either.
I think the main problem is that there are too many people and cos. and orgs. behind the scenes making too much money off of all this!
Just look at the proliferation of "Lobbyists" in Washington in the last ten years!
A third world country will hire a "lobbying" firm (on a "contingiency basis) and whatever they can get out of our congress the lobbying firm gets 20%!!!
It's no wonder that congressmen and senators all want to be "lobbyists!"
Gula Gula land gets $500 m of the Taxpayer's dollars and "Frisbee, Schmuck, and Armey" get a cool $100 m out of that! But,..... that's not "corruption!"

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

You think so? I'd say Sarah Palin is the one who massively turns them on. She even gets used as an avatar (presumably answering her subbie's question about coming out of chastity).

quote:

Beside that back in the 1980's Iran was the bully on the block, their goal was to overthrow every Muslim government in the Middle East, unite all of Islam under a ruthless religious dictatorship and eventually extend their Jihad to a global level. Stopping Iran was necessary, and circumstances made Iraq the perfect tool to use towards that end.

quote:

Had the United States simply sat back and allowed the Ayatollahs of Iran to annex Iraq and then continue their Islamic crusade at will from there I imagine we would have been fighting another full-on world war by now, or at the very least we would be in a cycle of endlessly appeasing the Ayatollahs that would have eventually led to such a massive confrontation as that. They fully believed they were doing the will of Allah and were throwing walls of children and men and old people at their enemy, caring not at all about the resulting carnage...

It is really good that the Ayatollahs were stopped, and stopped early on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
[...]
My impression is that the United States has been engaged in an economic imperialist and interventionist policy since the end of the Second World War, not always without provocation however.
[...]
The United States has been in an expansionist mode since land surveyors first glimpsed the west side of the Appalachian Mountains. The question now is: “Wither Empire?”

A historical note: American imperialism and the American Empire date from the Spanish-American (1898) and Philippine-American Wars (1899-1902).  Interestingly, the American frontier had been declared closed in the early 1890s, i.e., American imperialism appears to be a continuation of American expansionism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
[...]
My impression is that the United States has been engaged in an economic imperialist and interventionist policy since the end of the Second World War, not always without provocation however.
[...]
The United States has been in an expansionist mode since land surveyors first glimpsed the west side of the Appalachian Mountains. The question now is: “Wither Empire?”

A historical note: American imperialism and the American Empire date from the Spanish-American (1898) and Philippine-American Wars (1899-1902).  Interestingly, the American frontier had been declared closed in the early 1890s, i.e., American imperialism appears to be a continuation of American expansionism.