RE: A Nation of Perpetual War?

RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (Full Version)

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Sanity -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/14/2010 7:22:24 AM)
The war went on long after the initial invasion, indeed became a crusade on the part of Iran: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/iran-iraq.htm Which hasn't stopped to this day.

vincentML -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/14/2010 7:33:41 AM)
quote: Imagine if your delusions that the United States is an expansivist, imperialist nation were the reality - what it might have done after the second world war with all her industrial base running at full tilt while the rest of the developed world lay in ruin. While we were the only nation with the bomb... Get it straight, Tom. Economic imperialist was the term I used. US Industry retooled from war production and eventually profited mightily from the rebuilding of Europe while their industries were shattered. Expansionism was in our genes from the first landing in Virginia. What the hell do you think America was all about if not the freedom to get more land? We are no longer able to make a naked land grab but we control the oceans with eleven carrier strike forces and a long range air force. China is rising to challenge us but they have a long way to go.

vincentML -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/14/2010 7:36:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The war went on long after the initial invasion, indeed became a crusade on the part of Iran: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/iran-iraq.htm Which hasn't stopped to this day. Well of course it became a crusade inasmuch as they had been invaded. So, what was your initial fantasy excuse for the war is now the long range outcome of the war??? A bit confused. The article you cite says the start of the war was a serious miscalculation by Saddam and a throwback to ancient Arab/Persian animosity. Hardly the terror you proclaim.

Sanity -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/14/2010 7:36:59 AM)
Read my post more carefully. That wasn't just in reply to you vince, and you did indeed lament how we are an "expansivist" nation.

vincentML -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/14/2010 7:42:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Read my post more carefully. That wasn't just in reply to you vince, and you did indeed lament how we are an "expansivist" nation. We have always been an expansionist nation. How do ya suppose we got from the East Coast to Hawaii and the Philippines, Tom?

Sanity -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/14/2010 7:44:59 AM)
Get real. In the context you two used it in, you weren't talking about the purchase of Alaska or the Louisiana purchase.

vincentML -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/14/2010 7:55:21 AM)
Nope, talking about the Mexican-American War, the Spanish-American War, the Philippine-American War.

rulemylife -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/14/2010 7:58:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Hell - its too damn bad for everyone that Jimmy Carter didn't have the balls to help stop them before they took over Iran. Or maybe we shouldn't have been supporting what was in effect a dictatorship to begin with.

vincentML -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/15/2010 6:16:40 AM)
Our kids are dying in Afghanistan. Have you noticed? Are you paying attention? Wonder why it took only 500 Special Ops and a few Northern Tribesmen to drive the Taliban out of Afghanistan but now it takes 100,000 NATO troops to keep the Taliban out? Wonder why we find it okay to nation-build in Iraq and Afghanistan without concern for our Federal Budget but throw a hissy fit at Nation-building here at home or when asked to extend help to the unemployed in America?? Wonder why Afghanistan turned from a war against terrorists to a war against insurgency ??

DomYngBlk -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/16/2010 12:07:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Had the United States simply sat back and allowed the Ayatollahs of Iran to annex Iraq and then continue their Islamic crusade at will from there I imagine we would have been fighting another full-on world war by now, or at the very least we would be in a cycle of endlessly appeasing the Ayatollahs that would have eventually led to such a massive confrontation as that. They fully believed they were doing the will of Allah and were throwing walls of children and men and old people at their enemy, caring not at all about the resulting carnage... It is really good that the Ayatollahs were stopped, and stopped early on. Your logic...just don't get it. The arab world does not have the population base to support any sort of war against the west. Random acts of violence dont constitute a war. That part of the world has only one piece of leverage. Oil. Instead of seeing that and reacting with logic to remove the leverage a foe or group may have against us we simply fed into it. Albeit, we did it to feed the Oil Conglomerates that run the republican party. They are the reason we have bases there and why we have troops there. There is no other logical reason. If we'd simply work with the technology at hand. Enhance production in shale regions in Canada and force Mexico into a better working relationship then we'd find a way to get out of this calamity. But, we all know we won't because the powers that be aren't yet done milking the fatted cow.

vincentML -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/16/2010 12:51:05 PM)
quote: Your logic...just don't get it. The arab world does not have the population base to support any sort of war against the west. Random acts of violence dont constitute a war. Damn good point. Thank you. But can you not anticipate the reply? "Ooooo, some terrorist will carry a nuclear bomb across the Mexican border." Oh wait, someone already said that. Probably on the back of a camel no doubt.

popeye1250 -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/16/2010 1:47:28 PM)
Vincent, it's like drugs, "just say no." If we simply refuse to get involved in the internal affairs of foregn countries (like we should be doing) we won't be sending Troops all over the globe. Some people on the far left seem to think that somehow we should be getting involved in stopping "ethnic cleansing" or..."genocide prevention", or feeding people. I don't want to buy them dinner! That's not what you swear to when you take the oath. Besides, they need to "thin the heard" in a lot of countries and our Troops are not "peacekeepers" or "social workers" for the use of foreign countries who need to start solving their own problems. And, machete fights make for great t.v. watching! I couldn't care less if China were to take back Taiwan, of course our gov't would try to tell us that we ,..."have interests" there but we all know what that means, "big business" has "interests" there not American Citizens unless you own stock in one of the corporations that has factories there. So our Troops are supposed to be fighting "corporate wars?" And what about all those "treaties" that presidents signed 20, 30, 40 years ago swearing to "protect" foreign countries who were attacked? Was that really a wise thing to do? "Ok, boys, we're going to war to fight on the side of Macheteland because George H.W. Bush signed a "treaty" with them twenty two years ago!" We need to simply get out of them. That's one of the big problems with our govt., they want to get us "involved" in things but when it comes time to get out of something they never want to get us out, and that goes for everything they do! "No Sargeant, you're not fighting for the U.S. you're fighting for General Motors, Alcoa, and Walmart."

DomYngBlk -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/16/2010 2:16:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Your logic...just don't get it. The arab world does not have the population base to support any sort of war against the west. Random acts of violence dont constitute a war. Damn good point. Thank you. But can you not anticipate the reply? "Ooooo, some terrorist will carry a nuclear bomb across the Mexican border." Oh wait, someone already said that. Probably on the back of a camel no doubt. Weak and scared most of the population is. Order me up two or three more of those big macs, stop by dunkin and get donuts and pop over to baskin for an ice cream......Gonna kill myself surely but damn....keep those terrorists away! lol

DomYngBlk -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/16/2010 2:18:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Vincent, it's like drugs, "just say no." If we simply refuse to get involved in the internal affairs of foregn countries (like we should be doing) we won't be sending Troops all over the globe. Some people on the far left seem to think that somehow we should be getting involved in stopping "ethnic cleansing" or..."genocide prevention", or feeding people. I don't want to buy them dinner! That's not what you swear to when you take the oath. Besides, they need to "thin the heard" in a lot of countries and our Troops are not "peacekeepers" or "social workers" for the use of foreign countries who need to start solving their own problems. And, machete fights make for great t.v. watching! I couldn't care less if China were to take back Taiwan, of course our gov't would try to tell us that we ,..."have interests" there but we all know what that means, "big business" has "interests" there not American Citizens unless you own stock in one of the corporations that has factories there. So our Troops are supposed to be fighting "corporate wars?" And what about all those "treaties" that presidents signed 20, 30, 40 years ago swearing to "protect" foreign countries who were attacked? Was that really a wise thing to do? "Ok, boys, we're going to war to fight on the side of Macheteland because George H.W. Bush signed a "treaty" with them twenty two years ago!" We need to simply get out of them. That's one of the big problems with our govt., they want to get us "involved" in things but when it comes time to get out of something they never want to get us out, and that goes for everything they do! "No Sargeant, you're not fighting for the U.S. you're fighting for General Motors, Alcoa, and Walmart." Hell is surely freezing over. You almost made fucking sense!

Moonhead -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/16/2010 3:08:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Hell - its too damn bad for everyone that Jimmy Carter didn't have the balls to help stop them before they took over Iran. Or maybe we shouldn't have been supporting what was in effect a dictatorship to begin with. Supporting? The CIA deposed Mossadeq because he was talking about nationalising the oil companies and put the Shah back in power. That's a bit beyond mere support, I'd have said.

Politesub53 -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/16/2010 4:19:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Hell - its too damn bad for everyone that Jimmy Carter didn't have the balls to help stop them before they took over Iran. Or maybe we shouldn't have been supporting what was in effect a dictatorship to begin with. Supporting? The CIA deposed Mossadeq because he was talking about nationalising the oil companies and put the Shah back in power. That's a bit beyond mere support, I'd have said. Now now chaps, you know Sanity is right, right ? [;)]

vincentML -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/16/2010 7:31:22 PM)
quote: Vincent, it's like drugs, "just say no." If we simply refuse to get involved in the internal affairs of foregn countries (like we should be doing) we won't be sending Troops all over the globe. But, Popeye, we have eleven carrier strike forces, and humongous Air Power. What the hell would we do with them if peace suddenly broke out? [8\|]

vincentML -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/16/2010 7:58:34 PM)
"What better way for us to recruit for and romanticize the Taliban cause than to give them 10 years of armor-clad infidel foreigners on their land, to inveigh against and to attack? Frankly, establishing a government in a foreign country isn't a military objective. It just isn't. Counterinsurgency theory be damned, it's a civilian, development objective, in this case with military support. A military objective is winning a war. War is destructive, not constructive. We send men into war with guns, not with shields. It is not to accept military defeat to recognize that the 82nd Airborne can do many things but it can't make the governor of Nangarhar Province not corrupt. But each additional American life sacrificed to a goal we know we won't reach is a moral outrage -- a moral disaster -- that we have a responsibility, in this life during wartime, to stop. Dollars, yes. Lives? Lives? No. Not for a romantic wish. Not for something we want but know we won't get. Dollars, OK. Lives, no." I did a cut and paste on this. The full article is here. http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/07/15/4687273-maddow-the-hard-choice-in-afghanistan

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/16/2010 9:00:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity When called on it you can't prove the lies and leftist propaganda you've been spoon fed half your life so out of embarrassment and rage you resort to this typical far left tactic of character assassination thinking its just as good as a factual cerebral debate. Day in and day out, thread after thread, post after post. YAWN... just another day. I did. You didn't. And you are rapidly becoming someone not worth engaging in debate. "Becoming?" Christ, when was he ever worth talking to? He's always been like this.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? (7/16/2010 9:04:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Imagine if your delusions that the United States is an expansivist, imperialist nation were the reality - what it might have done after the second world war with all her industrial base running at full tilt while the rest of the developed world lay in ruin. While we were the only nation with the bomb... Well, what the heck do you think we were going to do? Bomb 'em again? I have no idea what you think made sense about this one. We had a perfect opportunity to help an entire planet full of potential customers for our goods and services back on their feet so they could do business with us. What else would we have done?

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