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why punishment? - 7/14/2010 11:35:59 AM

abuddingdom

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I haven't been around the CM boards much lately, other than an occasional lurk. I'm certain that this topic has been done to death, but hopefully it's worth revisiting or at least some of you will humor me. There's currently an active thread about worst punishment one has ever recieved/given. I don't do punishment. I used to, but it was mostly funishment. On an ongoing basis any transgression from being late to overcooking my eggs(a pet peeve of mine)could bring it on, but we both knew it was funishment( though we never put that pun word together back in those pre-lifetyle days)and we both reveled in it. When I did punish a bottom, in retrospect the relationsip I was in was already long into dysfunctional straits and a)there was likely nothing from without which would have changed the bottom in question's behavior, and b)I was in no place maturity-wise to be trying to change anyone's behavior.

I don't even do funishment with my pretty one, other than in very, very low doses - she's very literal and very obedience based - my looking for and her trying to aviod things to bring on my pretend wrath would be confusing to her. And neither of us wants a real punishment dynamic. We negotiate, and we mutually try to follow through, and when one of us fucks up we don't need to be bringing fear into the picture.

So.....to those of you who are into it - why? does it change behaviors, and is the target behavior actually a behavior or part of someone's personality? Do the "D" types who use punishment want to control someone to the point of changing their personality or even break someone's will? I've long suspected that there's a good percentage of people who come into the lifestyle who just assume that punishment is part&parcel of a D/s or M/s package and I've long wondered why that is and why they don't think for themselves more and create more imaginative methods of being in charge? And similair questions to the "s" types. Do you need it, and why, and do you have reasons or is it just because that's the way it is?

Please share, and thsnk you in advance to those who do.......

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RE: why punishment? - 7/14/2010 12:50:21 PM

dreamerdreaming

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Wow yeah, if you use the search function you'd find that your questions come up frequently.

I don't do reward/punishment either. With an obedient servant, its just not necessary. So all I had to do was to find one, and we were set. Funishment is yum!

I suspect that a lot of the newbs, or clueless people into punishment just haven't figured out that it can be just as yummy or more, to have your s-type suffer for your mutual pleasure (with no other reason than each other's pleasure and fulfillment) as it can to punish them (whether for real or trumped-up reasons). I think if people can develop and sustain a healthy degree of self-awareness, they'll figure it out eventually. If they're clueless about their inner workings, maybe they never will see the obvious. Whatever.

The key question is: does it work for them? If actual, real punishment feels right to them and brings about the desired results, then YAY! If not, then there are still a lot of worse ways to waste time on this planet. So even then its not so bad. It may seem pathetic to us, but whatever floats their boat is fine really.

If you really don't want to be obedient, then no amount of reward or punishment will make you. Its still a choice. If my slave showed a pattern of disobedience over time, he knows it would be a cause for release. I'm not in this to have a bunch of drama or struggle over issues revolving around willing obedience and compliance. The s- type will either show a pattern of willing obedience or not. If the D-type puts up with disobedience by reacting with innefectual punishments that don't fit the crime and with actions that don't address the underlying issues to help resolve them, then who's the dom??

In short: what you said, OP.

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RE: why punishment? - 7/14/2010 1:33:33 PM

aldompdx

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Everybody does reward/punishment at some level, even if subconsciously. Nobody is always above exprerssing a negative response.

One crucial distinction is whether the response is based in deterrent or reform. Whether it hurts or heals. Whether it instills fear or invites greater awareness and growth.

Living in a deterrent based society, many Americans have difficulty seeing punishment which is constructive, healing, promotes self growth, and adds resources to society rather than removing from it. Thus after China (undocumented), the U.S. has the world's largest total and per-capita rate of incarceration, at 0.75% of the population or 3 out of every 400 people.

Incarceration in the United States

Just consider the new Mass. obscenity law, effectively prohibiting any "obscene" expression over the internet.

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RE: why punishment? - 7/14/2010 2:12:39 PM

Focus50

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I do punishment and discipline but I don't do "funishment" or role play. That is (for the latter), I don't do shit that's pretend and mostly for the reasons you've given about punishment. Anything that's not real (your pretend wrath) has a limited shelf life....

For me, discipline is a short, sharp corrective action within a given moment, usually to make a point or get her headspace focused where I need it to be. And yeah, I mostly enjoy the opportunity to do so when they arise. But there's nothing "pretend" about it and if I thought the girl was acting up deliberately to create those moments (ie, manipulating me and thus controlling the proceedings), that changes *everything*. <cues punishment>

As I said, I generally enjoy some corrective discipline - short, sharp and done. However, I loathe punishment, but it has an important place. If the girl does something that actually makes me angry, such as the previously mentioned manipulation, for eg, then the only punishment I do is deny her attention. I don't like being angry and it's not that easy to make me angry but when I am, I'm not sociable and I need time to cool back down. The girl spends that time in the corner but most of all, what she doesn't get is a attention, let alone a reward of "funishment".

I don't like being angry and subs don't like being denied attention - we both *hate* it and there's no 'pretend' about it. But the punishment option needs to be there, IMO, so she knows that I have limits, too, and a means of addressing them. Once she knows that, then I'd much prefer punishment to remain passively dormant - the "or else" too many parents threaten without ever acting on (and there's only one short-term "winner" there).

OP, I gather you never get angry?

Focus.

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RE: why punishment? - 7/14/2010 2:16:57 PM

SilverWings002

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Even though it is not mainly my thing, I do like the idea as part of play. And also, it is something I must incorporate with one particular sub, he needs it craves it, and won't submit fully -I think he cannot- until I take him in hand. I am willing, since I like it anyway, and I am ready to do it. I think he is a strong willed person that feels he needs to be punished to feel the full dominance of me. I have until now, used him to learn, and now am ready to take the 'reins'. I don't need this with other subs, but a part of me also craves to do this to one, though I doubt I would have figure that out for a long time with most other subs.
Just some thoughts on this.

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RE: why punishment? - 7/14/2010 4:44:40 PM

DesFIP

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He's punished me once, way back in the beginning and we were ldr. I misunderstood something he said in chat, he got upset, and I cried for three days. He came up, gave me four mild spanks and let me cry in his arms. It was solely to remove my sense of guilt.

Anything other than that doesn't work for me. And this includes funishment. I know that I'm not really a schoolgirl who didn't do her homework and he isn't really a professor, but I still feel that I've done something awful. So we don't say I'm a naughty schoolgirl who needs a spanking. Instead I have trouble focusing on homework and need his special study skills course which consists of a spanking.

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RE: why punishment? - 7/14/2010 4:54:57 PM

LadyPact

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From the thread written on July 3.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Let Me see if I can explain it in the right way.

Even though it has been over a year since I punished clip the last time, I still consider this a punishment dynamic. I wouldn't even have to had punished him prior. The fact that I have the right to punish him if I deem it necessary makes this a punishment dynamic. That's the real basis of whether it is included or not.

While you bring up a very good point that communication should be able to be used to address any issue, there are times that is not sufficient. You asked a very specific question of did it help. There have been exactly three times during this dynamic that punishment worked where communication did not. In My opinion, that means the punishment was effective and successful. None of the three incidents that warranted punishment have been repeated.

Punishment in the way I use it comes in the form of tiered corrective action. If there is a pattern of behavior, the way I correct it and address it becomes greater as the problem persists. Should we get to the place where there is a punishment involved, it's pretty much the last resort before saying there is an area of incompatibility that is not a good match for the dynamic. If I punish and it happens again, the collar is most likely coming off.

I say this on just about every thread that comes up when being asked about why I include punishment. I think a lot of people think of punishment in the wrong way. I don't punish over stupid stuff like My eggs are over cooked or circumstances such as working too many hours prevented a journal entry from being done. To Me, that's silly. I also happen to think it's silly for a Dominant to need advice on how to punish someone when they are the person in authority over their submissive. I don't need to fix your (the Dominant's) problem. YOU as the Dominant need to be competent to fix your own problem. If that's YOUR sub, you should know what to do with them.

The thread in it's entirety can be found here. http://www.collarchat.com/m_3293564/tm.htm

Edited to correct the link. It can be found just two pages back on the General forum.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 7/14/2010 4:56:49 PM >

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RE: why punishment? - 7/14/2010 5:29:08 PM

DarkSteven

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I have punished when she broke a rule she knew about or did something that caused a serious issue for me.

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RE: why punishment? - 7/14/2010 5:44:41 PM

gungadin09

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This is my take on punishment:

1. Punishment eliminates feelings of guilt and allows me to move on
2. Punishment reinforces the idea that i live in a just world where actions have predictable consequences. (i.e.- if i did something wrong, it feels right that i SHOULD get punished)
3. Punishment is an effective tool for discouraging mistakes; i believe that it makes me more focused than i would be without it
4. Punishment reinforces the idea that what was being done was important to begin with (of course this doesn't work if i'm being punished for something stupid and trivial, but if it IS important, i like it to matter whether i got it right or wrong)
5. Ssssssshhhhhhh!!! Don't tell anyone, but sometimes i enjoy it
6. "Funishment" i don't understand. What is that, roleplay? i think if i get punished it should be for something i really did wrong.
7. Misunderstandings and miscommunications don't count, for me. Also, anything that was a true mistake and could not have been prevented by vigilence. i believe that punishment should be reserved for something important, instead of something trivial.
8. Punishment needs to be done fairly and consistently; it needs to be done with the mentality of teaching or correcting, and not just to be mean
9. Obviously, in the hands of the wrong person, this could be a disaster
10. i have to respect the person who's administering punishment

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RE: why punishment? - 7/15/2010 1:38:42 AM

lally2

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my idea of punishment is for it to be a full stop applied.

i would say that for the vast majority of subs or slaves NOT in a funishment dynamic their entire purpose is to please, serve and satisfy - so to dissappoint their Dominant to that degree is rare and maybe only needs to happen once.

if youre in a funishment dynamic that means that both the s and the D enjoy it, so to serve, please and satisfy their D is to play up and feed that kink.

but there is another group i think, newbies who think that the only means to a spanking is to have some reason for it - they cant seem to just enjoy the process without the endless negative spiral of 'punishment' as the theme. having been there myself i can honestly say its a very limiting way of going about Ds. the sub never really submits because theyre forever needing to challenge and act up and the Dominant is never actually in control - in the end those sort of relationships die away because the entire premis of Ds ends up on the cutting room floor and neither are satisfied.

< Message edited by lally2 -- 7/15/2010 1:41:08 AM >

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RE: why punishment? - 7/15/2010 7:26:35 AM

abuddingdom

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Oh hell yes, Focus50, I get mad. I'm in a relatively healthy relationship, these days, likely the healthiest I've been in(and I've been around, relationship-wise), and I don't "get mad" about the things I did in past relationships because they don't happen. My buttons don't get pushed, my boundaries aren't violated, I don't get lied to, she follows through on things she says she's going to do, and on her list of priorities I'm right near the top, and consistently. So, I'm rarely mad at her, and on the rare occasions it happens I usually soon figure out that it's something else which is stressing me. She's obedient and committed to obedience, so again, there's virtually no reason to punish even if I had that in my house. When we first were spending time together we did some funishment, but for the reasons in my op it's not healthy for her, it's like I'm fucking with her head and not in the good mindfuck way. Shortly after we went fulltime I did punish her once, but it was very misguided. She was having an emotional reaction to something in her life and I wasn't in agreement with it. I describe myself as a benovelent dicator type - I want power exchange, yes, but I'm not on a power trip. Controlling someone's emotions is messing with their spirit, at least that's something I believe as a result of my life experience.

My previous relationships were pretty dysfunctional, codependent and unhealthy from both sides. I was topping very willful and very compulsive people. Extreme swings, and no consistent honesty and no consistent commitment. Unhealthy people have a way of finding each other, you know? I've been happy to discover that I was capable of changing my patterns. Some people can't.

When I get angry now, it's at things outside my relationship, and even that anger is so much healthier and in perspective than it used to be. I look at D/s, good honest and healthy D/s, as being my salvation, perhaps even my redemption.

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RE: why punishment? - 7/15/2010 7:32:11 AM

abuddingdom

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Lally2 - I agree. If one or both are getting off on it, it isn't a punishment dynamic. it's one or both getting off.

LadyPact - thanks for the link, I'll check that thread out.

I want to stress that I'm not on an anti-punishment campaign. I don't use in in my present relationship, but further than that, as I said in my op I question whether many people really know why or have given real thought as to why they're doing it .

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RE: why punishment? - 7/15/2010 2:26:44 PM

gypsygrl

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quote:

Do you need it, and why, and do you have reasons or is it just because that's the way it is?

You already know my answers to these questions, Sir, but I'll post anyway for the sake of discussion.

I don't, at this stage of my life, need punishment and am only slightly attracted to it as a means of getting off. We have occasionally done play involving punishment, and sometimes it went well, other times, not so much. If I'm attracted to it at all its as a subset of humiliation play, as in, "I'm being punished?!? How humiliating to be treated like a child!!" Early on, when I was first dabbling in this stuff, I was far more attracted to it, and thought I wanted it as part of any dynamic I would be involved in, but I'm thinking that was before I had the experience to differentiate between what I wanted kink-wise, and what I wanted relationship-wise. I thought they were the same and it took me some time to sort it out.

As Sir already said, I am obedience driven--this means I need, above all else, to obey. Its important to me to please Sir, but even more important is obeying him. For the most part, he is pleased by my obedience and pleasing him and obeying him are the same, and there is no conflict. But, in the event of a conflict, I would have to resolve it in the direction of obedience. For example, before I moved in with him almost 2 years ago, he said I was to always "call him on his shit." I have always tried to obey that first order, even when I think its going to piss him off royally and it scares me to make him angry. He generally deals well with my calling him on his shit, but I didn't know this at the beginning and its taken me some time to learn this about him but I obeyed anyway even when I thought doing so would mean all hell would break loose.

Anyway, being obedience driven means I obey, albeit not always perfectly seeing as I'm human, and share all the weaknesses and foibles humans share. And, Sir's wise enough to only give orders I can obey without a whole lot of back flipping--He knows he's not a god and isn't so foolish as to think that I can follow any order just because he's given it. He hasn't targeted my coffee addiction or my tobacco addiction via obedience because he understands that addiction isn't the sort of thing to obey orders. Nor does he give orders that are contrary to my personality or beyond my ability--he wants my obedience as much as I do, so hasn't any interest in setting me up for failure.

I'm like this in most contexts. If there's a rule, I need to follow it. I'm not a discipline problem at work even though I work at the sort of a job that has a discipline policy surrounding it. Driving would be the exception--I speed, I have a history of not using my seatbelt, I talk on the phone. When it comes to the open road, I'm a veritable rebel. Although, when it became apparant that not using my seat belt displeased Sir, I got much better at it--now its simply a matter of breaking a habit.

Anyway, I'm so preoccupied with obedience, there really isn't much space in my life for punishment. Its not so much that I want to obey but that I have to. I really and truly can't help it. Over the years, this has caused me a lot of grief, and there's been times that I've convinced myself I'd have been much better off if I'd have been a rebel bad girl.

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RE: why punishment? - 7/15/2010 9:53:38 PM

Chrisincuffs

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My Master and I do use punishment as a part of our relationship, however I do NOT fear my Master. We have a mutual level of respect for each other which brought us to where we are today. I'm a strong, competent, articulate, beautiful woman and to others I DEMAND respect and compliance. These are the traits that Master was originally attracted to, so why would he want me to completely lose them? I did not lose them, I gave them to Him and only Him.
Master expects me to maintain a level of respect for myself on the inside and outside. Maybe means that my nails always look perfect or my hair, or maybe that means me getting off my ass and going for a run. I enjoy the punishment I deserve for not having the ambition to look perfect for Master.
What I'm saying is our punishments remind me to put forth the effort to be the best person and slave that I can be and it works GREAT for us

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