held in a fist or not

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lally2 -> held in a fist or not (7/17/2010 5:32:44 AM)
how much self governing do subs do and how much self governing do Dominants expect from their sub/slave. and by this i dont mean independance or going youre own sweet way with things. i mean how much do we as subs self govern within the context of our relationships. are we passive or active in our submission. when i ride my mental horse he needs me to be absolutely present. he's not a horse you can just sit on and he goes nicely, you have to think ahead all of the time. do we as subs think ahead or do we sit the ride and let it take us. is submission ALL about handing everything over, even our ability to assimilate right and wrong or do we totally rely on our Dominants to remind us of our submission. is it the physical more than the mental that holds our attention and if the Dominant should fail momentarily to respond to petulance or pushing do we really need to be reminded that we are just as culpable and capable of bringing ourselves back to that place they expect us to be. just musing... [:)]

kallisto -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/17/2010 5:47:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 just musing... [:)] It's too early in the morning for all this "musing" lally [:)] But ... [:)] I've always been in relationship where it's be "required" of me to be active in my submission, even when that requires me to be passive. It's been me holding up my end of the relationship. I don't do "mindless, non-thinking" very well.

littlewonder -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/17/2010 5:52:43 AM)
Both Most of the time I'm required to be present, to take the reigns of my submission. Other times he allows me to just sit back and enjoy and let it all roll over me.

DesFIP -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/17/2010 7:32:56 AM)
I'm not capable of handing over my judgment. I'm going to know right from wrong even if ordered not to. And actually I wouldn't be with anyone who tried that. But sometimes I'm active and sometimes I'm passive. The more active he is, the more passive I can be. But there are days when he's tired and more passive and I have to be more active. It's give and take, like any other relationship. You carry each other when the other needs that help.

kyraofMists -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/17/2010 9:59:46 AM)
For Alandra and I, there is no self-governing as she and I do not have the authority within the relationship to make our own decisions. He may delegate the authority back to us and it may appear from outside that we are self-governing. However, the authority does not lie with us and he can take it back at any time. As for being active or passive in submitting to him, we are both when he requires it. I don't have the authority to decide when I will be either... he does. Knight's Kyra

BitaTruble -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/17/2010 10:20:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 how much self governing do subs do and how much self governing do Dominants expect from their sub/slave. and by this i dont mean independance or going youre own sweet way with things. i mean how much do we as subs self govern within the context of our relationships. are we passive or active in our submission. when i ride my mental horse he needs me to be absolutely present. he's not a horse you can just sit on and he goes nicely, you have to think ahead all of the time. do we as subs think ahead or do we sit the ride and let it take us. is submission ALL about handing everything over, even our ability to assimilate right and wrong or do we totally rely on our Dominants to remind us of our submission. is it the physical more than the mental that holds our attention and if the Dominant should fail momentarily to respond to petulance or pushing do we really need to be reminded that we are just as culpable and capable of bringing ourselves back to that place they expect us to be. just musing... [:)] Well, I've known the difference between right and wrong for quite a good long while now. [;)] I don't need to be reminded of who is in charge because I've got that pretty down pat as well.. in fact, went into the relationship for the main reason that it is power based. I am not always capable of bringing myself back to the place that he expects me to be though ... the entire year of 2009 proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Without his guidance all sorts of things can and do happen and if he's not okay with that, then he's the one who needs to get the horses in line because he's the one holding the reins. I can't hold the reins and not hold the reins at the same time. If he decides to abdicate that responsibility, then I am perfectly capable of surviving and taking the path that I decide is best for me but limbo sorta sucks. As long as he determines the dynamic is in place then it's just not within me to say yea or nay but rather to go with his flow and hope I don't get sucked under the water so often for so long that I drown because, honestly, it came real close last year and I would prefer just not to have to go through that sort of mental hell again.

aldompdx -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/17/2010 10:49:34 AM)
Surrender itself is by ongoing free choice from self will. Only you are ultimately responsible for both your fulfillment and safety, by the choices you make.

yellowroses -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/17/2010 11:14:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I'm not capable of handing over my judgment. I'm going to know right from wrong even if ordered not to. And actually I wouldn't be with anyone who tried that. But sometimes I'm active and sometimes I'm passive. The more active he is, the more passive I can be. But there are days when he's tired and more passive and I have to be more active. It's give and take, like any other relationship. You carry each other when the other needs that help. Well I saw the word fist in the title of this thread and my interest was peaked. Since I read on anyway I will add my upput and agree with DesFIP. Sometimes I am active and sometimes I am passive depending on the day or even hour. I am not one who needs to be micro-managed however I like being given things to do and being submissive to him. GREAT topic!!! kim

ResidentSadist -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/17/2010 11:49:10 AM)
“are we passive or active in our submission.” Great question. Passive inactivity or the absence of resistance can equate to submission but to obey requires active participation.

lally2 -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/17/2010 1:48:37 PM)
in reflecting back id say that i was pretty much always passive - my submission had no resistance ( to use RS's word there [:)]) and i relied entirely on the parameters set out for me to keep me to heel. if i didnt stay to heel i got herded back in and settled back down again. that was submission to me. it was very straight forward in many ways and created no backwash i found difficult to deal with. i was. that was it. now im having to think [:D] and this requires active submission. through the course of a conversation lets say i am told a certain amount of stuff and from that stuff i hear a message that isnt given as an order but is none the less an expectation that i understand and comply with happily. in this space created for me i realise my submission has become more active and my personality more in tuned to Him because of that. His desire to engage all of me requires having all of me present - its very clever. in order to hear His directives i have to pay closer attention. the solidity of rules has been replaced with active submission. its an interesting switch around im finding curious, interesting and challenging. the danger of this of course is that i might end up topping myself - something i acutely do not want. so im coming back to you guys again as a follow through on youre interesting responses that you are both active and passive according to need, something i dont think i ever achieved, conciously at least. are there times when being active drives you dangerously close to thinking beyond the thoughts of youre Dominant.

xssve -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/17/2010 7:10:51 PM)
Damn, I thought it was about fisting. You ought to be able to take a hint, at least, yes - a lot of people don't though.

ranja -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/18/2010 12:47:29 PM)
i do lots of self governing and if i want more of His input about the BDSM things i have to ask for it nicely... sometimes it pisses me off and i want Him to be much much stronger and decisive and more tuned in than i perceive Him to be... but indeed it is only my perception because He is strong and decisive and not blind by any means, and if i stop moping about it and ask Him to treat me a certain way He most likely will... it is the asking that gets me though... mostly i am ok with it, but not always... sometimes i just want Him to do certain things or react a certain way, but He is He and He simply won't... so i have to bend and stop expecting and ask Him... nicely... But about many things we have made agreements and rules, our relationship is much more ordered than it was a few years ago, it gives us both much more clarity about how to get each others attention in a desired way There are things i will always be passive about... all mayor decisions are His... i might put my point across but i have no interest in making the final decision about anything really Also sexually i have no choice but to be passive; responsive but passive, He won't be pushed or turned or hurried or slowed or anything, i might suggest things but He will be in control and i will take what i get and do what He says Still, i very much feel like i am riding my own horse and am thinking ahead a lot of the time i know Him very well and i have my ways

lally2 -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/18/2010 1:18:43 PM)
thanks ranja - just wondering what would he do if you stopped asking -

ranja -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/20/2010 1:54:07 AM)
If i would stop asking and go back to secretly desiring or simply expecting things of Him... He would be exactly as He likes to be and have everything totally His own way and be rather oblivious to my needs or (worse) will on purpose ignore my 'hints' because He does not like to guess at what He should be throwing my way. He has no interest in spending a lot of time thinking about why i behave a certain way and what He might do to manipulate me for my benefit. He rather does other things to entertain Himself... He figures why should He even bother with anything if i can not even be bothered to ask politely? ... and i will be totally frustrated and 'misunderstood' and upset and living with a boring old fart again... not good... i think i prefer to get over myself and ask He is a dominant man, there is no doubt about that, i knew this from the moment i met Him and it is a huge attraction to me, but He has no interest in behaving in a BDSM-ish dominant way as in 'the lifestyle' sort of things... He is quite old fashioned and 'vanilla' really... i am the one with the imagination and 'weird' desires... also, it is mainly my own submission that gets me off.... but i only get off on it if things are good... i won't dig it if He hurts me too much or humiliate me at a certain 'delicate' time of the month... or if i get bored, so He expects me to be precise and clear about my needs, so He can be confident in assessing what He will 'treat' me to.

LPslittleclip -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/20/2010 9:14:34 PM)
i would like nothing better than to be able to remain in the place my Mistress wants of me. i have adhd and my mind and body do tend to wander and be distracted easily i do need to be guided at times reminded of focus. the only time i can remain focused is after a beating then i can exist placidly where my Mistress wants me.

lally2 -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/22/2010 1:41:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LPslittleclip i would like nothing better than to be able to remain in the place my Mistress wants of me. i have adhd and my mind and body do tend to wander and be distracted easily i do need to be guided at times reminded of focus. the only time i can remain focused is after a beating then i can exist placidly where my Mistress wants me. hi .... have to admit my mind and body wanders off a bit too [:D] - i think that to some extent or another we s'types are sometimes wired in such a way that we need to be pulled to heel from time to time. i kinda liken myself to a balloon on a long string - He has the string wound around his finger and lets me bob along and pulls me in from time to time when my head hits the clouds or i look like im gonna get tangled up in something i shouldnt. being ostensibly a free spirit that is a bit of an oxymoron when it comes to submission. i need the confinement of Him to keep me focused but i need my freedom to float and flit too. both are a freedom and submission actually gives me greater freedom to be me because i know He has me on the end of the string to stop me from floating away completely. it is about wanting to be in the right place all of the time but we cant always be perfect ... lol [:D]

bliss4us09 -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/22/2010 1:07:23 PM)
Ultimately submission means submitting to the role rather than to a person. If submitting is what let's you be your truest self, it does not matter who you submit to. In this way, a sub needs to be examining him or herself with reference to the ideal and to his/her Dom's conception of it. (Conversely, a Dom is submitting to her/his own ideal and not the sub's version of it.)

cassandria -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/22/2010 1:18:36 PM)
quote: .... have to admit my mind and body wanders off a bit too - i think that to some extent or another we s'types are sometimes wired in such a way that we need to be pulled to heel from time to time. i kinda liken myself to a balloon on a long string - He has the string wound around his finger and lets me bob along and pulls me in from time to time when my head hits the clouds or i look like im gonna get tangled up in something i shouldnt. being ostensibly a free spirit that is a bit of an oxymoron when it comes to submission. i need the confinement of Him to keep me focused but i need my freedom to float and flit too. both are a freedom and submission actually gives me greater freedom to be me because i know He has me on the end of the string to stop me from floating away completely. it is about wanting to be in the right place all of the time but we cant always be perfect ... lol [:D] lol I had to grin when reading this lally...my mind will wander all over the place if it's not 'pulled to heel' as you put it. I'll bob all over the place until the string is jerked...and I'm learning that I may need to ask for the string to be tugged, which is difficult for me. I love your analogy and how you describe submission vs free spiritedness...I can really relate. Wonderful topic [:)]

lally2 -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/22/2010 2:28:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bliss4us09 Ultimately submission means submitting to the role rather than to a person. If submitting is what let's you be your truest self, it does not matter who you submit to. In this way, a sub needs to be examining him or herself with reference to the ideal and to his/her Dom's conception of it. (Conversely, a Dom is submitting to her/his own ideal and not the sub's version of it.) that may be true to you and i respect youre slant on how you see this, but i do not submit to a role and i dont submit to a man who is playing a role, i tried that once or twice in the earlier years and it was nonsense to me. role playing, putting on a mantel, shifting gear from vanilla to Ds gave me nothing at all to submit to because i dont play a role. i am submissive in my relationships and i need a man who understands me and the only type of man who understands me is my opposite - namely a man who is naturally and capably dominant towards me. each has their own style, as different as their personalities and needs and it is very much the person i submit to. i have to like, admire, trust and respect them, hand over control, decision making and leadership skills, their vision, interests, desires on where they want to go with me and to become completely vulnerable and open to Him, i have to know Him before i can fully submit. this isnt just about BDSM for some, when in a Ds or Ms relationship its just that, a relationship with two adults who will never bond if all theyre doing is living a projected role with each other.

lally2 -> RE: held in a fist or not (7/22/2010 2:46:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cassandria quote: .... have to admit my mind and body wanders off a bit too - i think that to some extent or another we s'types are sometimes wired in such a way that we need to be pulled to heel from time to time. i kinda liken myself to a balloon on a long string - He has the string wound around his finger and lets me bob along and pulls me in from time to time when my head hits the clouds or i look like im gonna get tangled up in something i shouldnt. being ostensibly a free spirit that is a bit of an oxymoron when it comes to submission. i need the confinement of Him to keep me focused but i need my freedom to float and flit too. both are a freedom and submission actually gives me greater freedom to be me because i know He has me on the end of the string to stop me from floating away completely. it is about wanting to be in the right place all of the time but we cant always be perfect ... lol [:D] lol I had to grin when reading this lally...my mind will wander all over the place if it's not 'pulled to heel' as you put it. I'll bob all over the place until the string is jerked...and I'm learning that I may need to ask for the string to be tugged, which is difficult for me. I love your analogy and how you describe submission vs free spiritedness...I can really relate. Wonderful topic [:)] i suppose this is where we step into the self governing in a way. identifying a need within us and not expecting our Dominant partners to be telepathic. its better to ask and surrender our need than brat out or play up for the attention we need to bring us to heel. He may say yes, or no or later or maybe - but thats the pleasure of submitting our need and them taking control of it. i realised something today. i am struggling a bit, trying to be patient and wait - i began to think 'i want this, i want that, i need Him to tell me' and then my head went quiet the white noise abatted and i slipped back into the place He's asked me to occupy for the time being. what i realised is that this place, this space He's created is full of His desire for me to be patient and because i want to do as He has asked the white noise, my wants and needs faded out. this might sound small to you, but its huge for me. without orders, directives or overt control He has just quietly occupied me and deftly controls me, simply through engaging my desire to do as He has asked. my head used to be full of stuff like: 'it ought to be this, he ought to do that, i want this, i want that, this is how it should be' - but i realise thats nonsense - it should be however it feels right to be and dropping all of the hype and just focusing on the man is all there is to it. well, it was a moment of clarity today [:)]

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