RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice?

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Yourscum -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/30/2010 12:29:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 I`m referring to our belief in God........or not to believe. We are lead to believe(as demonstrated here) that God is great,God is full of grace and miracles. So my question this Sunday morning,................. is it really a choice ? It is really free will choice when the choices are 1.Winning the heaven lottery with nothing but comfort,peace and stuff for forever up there,or 2.The worst possible circumstances that any person can imagine,poop/piss/fire and pain(I know that`s some folks idea of a good time) for forever, down there? There is no free will if there`s an implied threat of violence if you don`t or if you do,you get tons of good stuff. Discuss. I think this was a little all over the place, so hopefully this addresses the question you posed. Is belief a choice? In my experience, no it's not. I was raised in a christian home, my parents forced me to go to church until I became an embarrassment with all my questions to the Sunday school teachers that they simply could not answer. I did try, very hard and for many years to believe in their god, but in the end rational thought always won out, and I simply could not believe in their god. The fear of hell was the final issue to shed, once that was out of the way I began a spiritual journey to find what religion would work for me. I sampled many religions, and many christian denominations. even Mormonism. Buddhism came close for me, it has the best ethics of any religion on earth, and was something worth believing in, yet I still could not. Which is when I accepted I was not a person of belief, and accepted atheism fully. Since then if someone makes the claim that belief is a choice, I challenge them to prove it. If, for example they are christian, I ask them, if you think it's a choice can you prove it? Can you choose to believe in Islam or Bhuddism? So far no one has been able to meet to said challenge. As for free will, it cannot exist in any of the abrahamic faiths. If you consider that the belief is this god is all powerful and all knowing (mutually exclusive terms that these people don't really consider) and the creator of the world, then everything is already set in stone. It means that this god knew everything that would happen, start to finish, because he knows EVERY factor in the world that could affect a person and their life, their 'decisions'. That means that no one is choosing anything that wasn't already decided before the world was created. So free will, in the abrahamic faiths, cannot be said to exist if their god was real.

E3 -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/30/2010 1:46:15 PM)
Yourscum... your line of logic re: free will as presented in Abrahamic faiths.... it gave me wood. Though I ask this.. is it that things were pre-decided, thus we are simply playing to existing parts... OR was it that things were simply "pre-recorded", so free will exists, but what that free will will be, was already written down as if after the fact? Though that would require hte assumption that any one God would exist not in a parallel time to ours (as is implied in the concept of no beginnign and no end), but rather in a singular time capable of accessing all our time, at once. As BAD as this sounds, think of the Q from Star Trek.. or the Oracle from Matrix. "Haven't I met you before? or hasnt that happened yet?" kind of logic. I wish I was on drugs.. so I could lay off them. To the OP. I was riased devout Catholic. Wanted to join the clergy infact, thats how strongly I felt pulled to my spirituality. BUT the priests immortal words "your parents were not married. in Gods eyes my boy, you do not exist. You cannot server the church." Yep, that began a shattering of my faith. From there. I went to Jehovas Witnesses as a kid... Nice people. Good people (though I have heard extreemist horror stories). BUT by this time, I couldnt rationalize any view of the One God. I chose to turn away from all I'd learned in christianity. It no longer made sense to me after a time, and that was becuase of a priest. WHo should have guided me into the fold, but instead, he destroyed the smoke and mirrors for me.

GotSteel -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 1:54:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: E3 I mean think of Darwin and his theory of evolution. Especialy in that era, the fight of science vs religion was very prominant. I know now a days, scientists turn a blind eye to religion more often than defame it as they once did. Thats what I mean when the two things are often against each other. Yet theories of evolution and creationism are NOT contradictory if certain definitions are modified. They are contradictory, the things is most of Christianity isn't creationist. At this point it isn't a science vs. religion issue. It's a scientific theory and demonstrable fact versus fundy dogma issue.

Kirata -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 4:01:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yourscum If you consider that the belief is this god is all powerful and all knowing (mutually exclusive terms that these people don't really consider) and the creator of the world, then everything is already set in stone. That's a non sequitur. You can't prove determinism by assuming it. K.

vincentML -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 5:04:05 PM)
quote: What if "and God created life on earth" means yes, evolution was caused to happen, dinosaurs, natural existence. And eventual evolution into humanity. All scientificly understood at least on a basic, theoretical level. What if all of any "God's" powers are similarily, scientific? You may wish to explore the notion that there are at least three different events to be examined in your developing philosophy with which you and many of the rest of us struggle variously. How did the Universe come about? Nevermind why. How? What are the scientific explanations if any? What are the mythological explanations? Cosmogony. (20 billion years ago, give or take) Secondly, how did life first organize (appear, if you wish) on this planet? Did inorganic matter organize by happenstance into organic molecules? What environmental conditions would that require if you assumed no Designer? Abiogenesis. (three to four billion years ago give or take) Thirdly, given the apparent change of life forms from simple to complex witnessed in fossils from lower rock strata to higher rock strata, how did this change take place, and how did it all lead to the human species? Enter Darwin's Model of Evolution by Natural Selection vs the johhny come lately counter proposal of Intelligent Design. I leave you to work out your own answers and draw your own conclusions about Godly agency in this three part story. quote: I mean think of Darwin and his theory of evolution. Especialy in that era, the fight of science vs religion was very prominant. I know now a days, scientists turn a blind eye to religion more often than defame it as they once did. Thats what I mean when the two things are often against each other. Yet theories of evolution and creationism are NOT contradictory if certain definitions are modified. I am not sure your statement is correct for the second half of the 19th Century although Darwin did seem to fall away from his Anglican beliefs towards the end of his life and became more agnostic I think. But a marked fight between science vs religion as you put it leaves me doubtful. Anyway, good luck in your struggles.

Brain -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 7:35:25 PM)
The word God = the word Science for me. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Why not just look around…feel the earth beneath you…then let your mind drift…do you think all around you is random chance… something from nothing with time neither beginning nor ending… or…do you feel the touch of intelligence, power, and a purpose for creation even if you don‘t understand it? If you like me feel a purpose and see order from chaos then this is enough for me to believe in God. If you don’t like the word God then perhaps Source…or any word you would like to describe the guiding creative force. Take your time and explore organized religion… if one seems right to you then by all means rejoice in it. If none do then keep your own religion. In the end it will be between you and God or it will make no difference at all if there is but oblivion. I think we all know what it takes to be a good, fair minded, loving human being and I think that is all God is asking…I choose to believe this is enough for my soul. I don’t need the strapping’s of tradition and rules made by man trying to dictate the only path to salvation. Butch

Brain -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 7:40:22 PM)
The downside is praying, reading and believing in bullshit not to mention all the time spent in church socializing with people you may not like. quote: ORIGINAL: DemandingOwner1 Descartes thought of it as a simple risk/benefit analysis: If you believe in God, and there is no God, then you end up simply disappearing when you die If you do NOT believe in God, and there is a God, then you end up burning in hell for eternity His conclusion was 'believe in God, there is no downside and plenty of upside' though stated much more elegantly.

Brain -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 7:43:05 PM)
Maybe it up time and time is money? quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: So, you don't "have" to go to church then? Your point?

Brain -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 7:49:28 PM)
It can't, it doesn't make sense, so once again that means it's a lie. quote: If there is one god. And a multitute pray to him in the same manner, ie. every sunday at church, how can that one god speak to each individual person individually?

Brain -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 7:54:54 PM)
So why do people waste all their time praying for him to intervene? quote: First of all, the Divine does not intervene in our universe on its own volition.

Brain -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 7:57:42 PM)
George Bush spoke to God when he started the Iraq war. quote: Why do you assume the Divine speaks to people? It does not. Do you hear voices?

Brain -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 8:18:16 PM)
Then why not start on your own path in the first place? I mean if you're going to do what you want anyway what's the point in starting out on somebody else's path? quote: ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyWood quote: ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin quote: ORIGINAL: Anarrus There's no choice to be made if one's an atheist, other than choosing not to believe in all that baloney. But that's simply way too freeing for some. Meaning what, exactly? That you're not free if you're following some sort of God/Goddess path? If you're following a path, you're restricted to where the path goes. Mr Johnson Head of Mathematics Are you? Why not start on a path and meander off into the wilds of your own journey?

Brain -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 8:41:22 PM)
Actually, with the help of modern technology and progress in science they can show now how life began in the ocean, very deep in the ocean. And when you combine that with the knowledge gained in other sciences such as physics and astronomy the pieces of the puzzle combine to get a comprehensive and clear picture and it's very unlikely there is a Creator of the type humans relate to. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: It is a good word and my personal definition of religion does not exclude the possibility of intelligent direction through evolution. Butch .... Darwin's explanation of Evolution by Natural Selection does seem to exclude the possibility of intelligent direction. I doubt you will find many evolutionists who will even consider the possibility of intelligent design. It is quite difficlut to reconcile evolution and religion however much many may wish to do so. No it does not... it only shows the progression of life... not its beginning, direction, or meaning . In no way does it exclude an intelligent guide. It solves no mysteries or offers no explanations of the universe. It is but one observable part of the whole of which we are far from understanding. I am not here to convince owner59 of the existence of my God or beliefs but only to get him to look deep into himself to see if he can find his God. He will know if he does and if not I'm sure he will still be a good man. Butch

Brain -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 8:48:39 PM)
One plus one equals two is rational. One plus one equals three is illogical and not rational. If you and others don't understand why one plus one can only equal two and want to believe it's three then it's your prerogative to do so but it doesn't make it correct. There are risks in believing in God such as limiting your free will to make your own decisions and leaving it in "God's hands". quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel His conclusion was a false dichotomy and his risk analysis ignored the risks of believing in god. And that is your conclusion. Inasmuch as you think believing in God is not the right way to go, there are just that many that belief it is. I believe its a choice. To demand people believe your choice is the only choice is not only wrong, but ineffective. Not believing in God is as right and rational as you think it is, as much as believing in God is right and rational to others. That is the dichotomy.

Kirata -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 9:21:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brain There are risks in believing in God such as limiting your free will to make your own decisions and leaving it in "God's hands". On the contrary, it would limit our free will if we did not have the choice to do nothing, to "leave it in God's hands" (as the expression goes). Que sera sera, eh? K.

Brain -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 9:24:40 PM)
Then there is no point in debating or discussing anything. The whole discussion is a waste of time. quote: Faith does not need proof. Faith needs someone to just believe.

Kirata -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/31/2010 11:40:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brain Then there is no point in debating or discussing anything. The whole discussion is a waste of time. You like to make it sound as if belief in things unproven is a passtime of idiots. But the effects of a belief are independent of whether or not its object is real in a rigorous sense. And when it comes to believing in something for which there is no possibility of proof either way, you're just being a jerk by running around pissing in other people's Wheaties. It is ridiculous to demand scientific "proof" of something that by definition is beyond science's scope. And frankly, it is impossible to consider anyone who would make such a demand a reasonable person. K.

GotSteel -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (8/1/2010 7:50:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata And when it comes to believing in something for which there is no possibility of proof either way... What makes you say that? I can understand that if your concept of god is some being hiding outside of space and time, effecting our lives in no way; that he'd be rather difficult to find. However many religious texts make claims about their deities interaction with the world which are testable.

vincentML -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (8/1/2010 8:00:56 AM)
quote: Actually, with the help of modern technology and progress in science they can show now how life began in the ocean, very deep in the ocean. And when you combine that with the knowledge gained in other sciences such as physics and astronomy the pieces of the puzzle combine to get a comprehensive and clear picture and it's very unlikely there is a Creator of the type humans relate to. I find this position curious and limited, despite the fact that I once thought it valid. Life appeared quite late in the evolution of the Universe. Consequently, the event seems quite useless in weighing the question of a Creator. For the moment I am going to ignore all the hedging you do in your extended comment and focus only on abiogenesis. I especially do not wish to contemplate if there is a Creator of the type humans cannot relate to. If you follow (in a mental exercise) the evolution of the Universe (the Big Bang) in reverse you arrive at a "primordial atom," an instant when all matter and energy of our expanding Universe was condensed in one place. I am assuming of course that our Universe is a closed system with no new matter or energy entering since the beginning of time. So, at time zero everything is packed in one "spot." The forces of attraction must have been beyond imagination. The questions that come to mind are 1. where did all this stuff come from? (how did the primordial atom become?) 2. how were the gravitational forces overcome and the expansive forces let loose? 3. are/were there other primoridal atoms to explode into other Universes. 4. What is the space surrounding the primordial atom and into which it is expanding? 5. finally the epistemological question: how do we know this shit? All of my questions assume we are limiting our method of inquiry to scientific naturalism. We choose that philosophy of necessity when we reject a supernatural creator. It seems to me that is the Big Choice we make in some fashion along the way of pondering the issue: In which philosophical stream do we stand? So, I think The Big Choice in this thread is really asking the wrong question or at least asking it in the wrong order. And I think abiogenesis does not contribute much in making the Choice. The Choice is ultimately a philosophical one, not a scientific one. Dude! Do you read me?

willbeurdaddy -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (8/1/2010 1:11:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: E3 What if "and God created life on earth" means yes, evolution was caused to happen, dinosaurs, natural existence. And eventual evolution into humanity. All scientificly understood at least on a basic, theoretical level. What if all of any "God's" powers are similarily, scientific? This rhetorical question highlights the weakness of arguments in favor of the existence of god. "What if"??? Yes...the possibility cannot be eliminated, just as the possibility of the Abominable Snowman cant be eliminated . (Actually there is more evidence of the AS then there is of god.) BUT, what does that "what if" add to a scientific/probabilistic analysis of gods existence? Absolutely nothing. It superimposes a layer of complexity that adds nothing in the way of explanation, making the scenario even less likely than abiogenesis and evolution. Especially now that RNA has been shown to spontaneously generate from inorganic molecules in the lab.

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