quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

There is such a thing as quantum mechanics and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. Our universe therefore is not purely a Newtonian mechanistic universe. There is a choice of consequences for every action. These consequences may be influenced by the Divine.

Does one want to be lucky? The Divine may influence someone - affecting his brain - not to have the hole in his pocket to be repaired, causing him to lose two cents, and for the wanting to be lucky one to find those two cents.

quote:

It is only through the existance of a divine, that there can be any sort of "free Will". There is no possibility of it in a "materialist" universe. How could there be anything other than the interaction of forces and particles according to laws?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It is only through the existance of a divine, that there can be any sort of "free Will". There is no possibility of it in a "materialist" universe. How could there be anything other than the interaction of forces and particles according to laws?

And in the same fashion how can the human brain distinguish various stimuli, how can it feel various emotions like rage, sadness, and affection? How can we move about by our own volition? Are we puppets dependent on god? Is it not possible that cognition developed through Evolution? No? Why not?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Pascal's Wager and rational self-interest relates to the individual's desire to believe in salvation. Whether or not it's a god/gods/nymphs/jinns.....is irrelevant.

So, it is not as you stated earlier a reasoned proof of God's existence, or did I misread you, NG? I really don't think I did, but maybe ....

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
It is only through the existance of a divine, that there can be any sort of "free Will".

Walk me through how the existence of a "divine" would effect how our brains work one way or the other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
It is only through the existance of a divine, that there can be any sort of "free Will".

Walk me through how the existence of a "divine" would effect how our brains work one way or the other.

Its kind of sad that you had to trim what I said in order to able to ask your question. It is proof that you know I am right.


I can't walk you through it.

However, if we live in a materialist universe, where everything is simply the interactions of Particles and forces according to laws(which is the position of Athiests), so's the workings of your brain. Unless you can walk me through a way that your brain is magically different than the rest of existance. Which I would be interested in hearing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It is only through the existance of a divine, that there can be any sort of "free Will". There is no possibility of it in a "materialist" universe. How could there be anything other than the interaction of forces and particles according to laws?

And in the same fashion how can the human brain distinguish various stimuli, how can it feel various emotions like rage, sadness, and affection? How can we move about by our own volition? Are we puppets dependent on god? Is it not possible that cognition developed through Evolution? No? Why not?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

FR I guess Athiests (at least the evangelical ones) are so nasty, because they "Know with out a doubt", that they can never experience love. Since it can't be empirically defined or proven, it can't exist in their world. What a sad way to live. They know for a fact that thier Mothers do not (and could not possibly) love them.


Also the certainty that they are nothing but Complex Robots with absolutly no choice or will, and the entire universe is predetermined, must be rather depressing.


The fact that Athiesm (actuall athiesm or "strong athiesm") can't be based on rationalism, so they have to make up 2 kinds of Athiesm, and none of them seem to like calling themselves "weak", seems to irritate them also.

Isn't predetermination a religious belief?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
There is such a thing as quantum mechanics and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. Our universe therefore is not purely a Newtonian mechanistic universe. There is a choice of consequences for every action. These consequences may be influenced by the Divine.

Does one want to be lucky? The Divine may influence someone - affecting his brain - not to have the hole in his pocket to be repaired, causing him to lose two cents, and for the wanting to be lucky one to find those two cents.

You have repeatedly said that the Divine cannot intervene in nature of its own volition. Kindly make up your fucking mindfuck.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
It is only through the existance of a divine, that there can be any sort of "free Will".

Walk me through how the existence of a "divine" would effect how our brains work one way or the other.

Its kind of sad that you had to trim what I said in order to able to ask your question. It is proof that you know I am right.


I can't walk you through it.

However, if we live in a materialist universe, where everything is simply the interactions of Particles and forces according to laws(which is the position of Athiests), so's the workings of your brain. Unless you can walk me through a way that your brain is magically different than the rest of existance. Which I would be interested in hearing.

But you can't walk us through a way in which interactions of particles and forces negates the possibility of free will.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It is only through the existance of a divine, that there can be any sort of "free Will". There is no possibility of it in a "materialist" universe. How could there be anything other than the interaction of forces and particles according to laws?

And in the same fashion how can the human brain distinguish various stimuli, how can it feel various emotions like rage, sadness, and affection? How can we move about by our own volition? Are we puppets dependent on god? Is it not possible that cognition developed through Evolution? No? Why not?

Vincent, so you are saying Cognition is different than everything else in the Universe? Why would that be? That is part of the underlying premise of many religions. But why would an athiest think so?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I just had a conversation with a god, or it might have been a dog. After asking if there really was a choice, I got the following answer.

BARK YIP YOWL GROWL BARK BARK.

Which roughly translated means, "Fill up my food dish you moron."

So, I would say there is no choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Willbeur, So quanta magically have a will of thier own, and every event in the universe is uncertain?? Quantum events do not happen according to laws (that we do not yet understand)? Nothing can be predicted according to laws, because the quanta might decide to do something different? Is that really what you are saying?


Interesting variation on the God of the Gaps theory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Willbeur, So quanta magically have a will of thier own, and every event in the universe is uncertain?? Quantum events do not happen according to laws (that we do not yet understand)? Nothing can be predicted according to laws, because the quanta might decide to do something different? Is that really what you are saying?


Interesting variation on the God of the Gaps theory.

No thats not what I am saying. First, even at the macro particle level there is nothing that obviates free will. The state of matter in the next instant is determined by its current state only when no force is applied. When you take action pursuant to a choice A or B you are applying different forces depending on which one you choose. What an interesting use of the strawman argument....I have said many times in this thread, "the interaction of forces and particles". The state of matter(or energy) in the next instant is the result of the current state plus any force applied or removed, but it is entirerly predictable. thats how we send probes to distant planets. The result of applying force creates a predictable result, because they operate according to laws(which we do not yet know all of). At least that is what scientists and athiests think.

At the quantum level you are confusing uncertainty with "quanta deciding what to do". Elementary building blocks initially exist as probability distributions without a defined state. In the process of "measuring them" the wave function collapses to a particle with a defined state. Measurement is a process initiated by a sentient being choosing to measure it. Therefore the choice itself impacts the state of the universe by collapsing a wave function to a point that cannot be pre-determined. Voila, free will. Actually that assumes the theory is correct, but pretending it is you are assuming that the impact from the choice is not governed by the same laws regulating the interaction of particles and forces. Which there is no reason to do so. In a materialist universe, which is the bedrock of Athiesm, its like pool, you break, and then it all bounces around, according to set laws, with absolulty no surprises. It's called a dynamic system, scientists deal with them all the time.

What's really interesting is if this theory you posit is literally true, not simply a way for us to handle the complexities of sub atomic phenomena. you are saying everything was undefined untill it was observed. Which is actually a variation of a proof of the existance of God, the first cause. Matter and energy did do stuff for billions of years before there were any life forms to observe it. Hence there must have been an observer, right?

Plus there is no evidence at all that decision making is occuring on the quantum level, it seems to be electrochemical, which is all predictable.

Again, whats more important to any discussion of free will is that IT DOESNT MATTER WHETHER WE HAVE FREE WILL OR NOT. That's your subjective opinion, but kind of wierd you would comment on something you don't care about
We believe that when we get in the car to go to the market, we are choosing what market to go to, the means of getting there, what we buy when we get there etc. If free will does exist, our choices matter. If free will doesnt exist, we are under the very strong illusion that it does. The end result is it doesnt matter. There is nothing we do that does not involve a choice, or the illusion of choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
What else he can do, is to oppose circumcision as Grace often is lacking in circumcised populations, and will increase when the practice ends.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

There is such a thing as quantum mechanics and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. Our universe therefore is not purely a Newtonian mechanistic universe. There is a choice of consequences for every action. These consequences may be influenced by the Divine.

Does one want to be lucky? The Divine may influence someone - affecting his brain - not to have the hole in his pocket to be repaired, causing him to lose two cents, and for the wanting to be lucky one to find those two cents.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
In the process of "measuring them" the wave function collapses to a particle with a defined state. Measurement is a process initiated by a sentient being choosing to measure it. Therefore the choice itself impacts the state of the universe by collapsing a wave function to a point that cannot be pre-determined. Voila, free will.